Western Mediterranean Military Koine ?

[Erpingham]

I don't think we've had this thesis before

"The contemporaneous development and transmission of similar military equipment across the western Mediterranean between the fifth and third centuries strongly suggests that a common military koine was in existence. "

Is this another way of saying Western Mediterranean Way of War?  I haven't read it but the expansion of the Roman Republic is such an evergreen with members, some may be interested.

[Imperial Dave]

run for cover....! 

[Andreas Johansson]

Is this another way of saying Western Mediterranean Way of War?

He's clearly positing a Western Mediterranean Way or War - I'm not sure if it's quite the same as the one we know and love. Or that some of us do - that debate largely preceded my engagement with the Society.

Anyway, skimming the introduction, this koine centres on men armed with both javelins and close combat weapons (thrusting spears and swords), big oblong shields and relatively light body armour, who are capable of both skirmishing and close combat.

I'm not sure to what extent this koine is supposed to to survive through the Punic Wars era. Certainly, some of the peoples involved eventually jettison parts of the equipment he describes as typical of it, adopting stuff like mail and long slashing swords.

[Duncan Head]

I don't think we've had this thesis before

We have - The return of the Western Mediterranean Way of War. The title of the thesis crops up in a few other threads as well.

[Erpingham]

I apologise for inflicting the pain all over again.

[Imperial Dave]

it is in all seriousness a useful debate but maybe done to death. Still always good to view stuff from time to time

[Dangun]

To be fair to the author... he is not positing a western way of war in order to make a contrast with some other (eastern?) way of war.

Apologies to the author, but paraphrasing... his argument is that the surprising similarity of equipment suggests a similar way of waging war.
I am not sure how surprising similar equipment is to begin with. I can imagine many reasons for transmission and convergence.

And he doesn't really engage with the next question which is pretty obvious - if everyone had the same equipment, and  used it the same way, why was military success so unevenly distributed?

[Erpingham]

To be fair to the author... he is not positing a western way of war in order to make a contrast with some other (eastern?) way of war.

And, we should recall, Western Mediterranean Way of War was a humourous play on the deadly serious Western Way of War.  Paul McDonnell-Staff was not suggesting any deep political meaning, just that everyone in the Western Mediterranean seemed to end up using a similar weapons set (Two throwing/thrusting spears, a long shield and a sword), whereas in the Eastern Mediterranean they stuck with a different set of weapons (A thrusting spear, a big round shield and a sword).  The big controversy came when discussing how this common panoply was used and, indeed, whether everyone used it the same.

[Cantabrigian]

if everyone had the same equipment, and  used it the same way, why was military success so unevenly distributed?

Maybe equipment isn't the major factor in military success?

[Andreas Johansson]

if everyone had the same equipment, and  used it the same way, why was military success so unevenly distributed?

Maybe equipment isn't the major factor in military success?

I don't think Dangun - who hasn't logged onto the forum for over a year and presumably won't reply here - was meaning to imply that it was: note that he said and used it in the same way. I'm not sure how wide a sense of "use" he intended, but given that Lumsden posits a a common style of warfare over the whole area, probably a rather wide one. If the Roman military system in the 4th and early 3rd centuries was essentially the same as their rivals, why did it prove much more successful? I think that's a reasonable enough question that Lumsden ought address.

[Cantabrigian]

I don't get the impression that the early Republican armies were massively superior to their enemies - even in Livy there seem to be as many defeats as victories.  What seems to have made the difference is Rome's ability to strategically exploit victories while shrugging off the effect of defeats.

So I can imagine the conquests happening even if there was no great difference in the way their armies fought.  Though, of course, that's no proof that such a difference didn't exist.

[Ian61]

I'm not sure I understand the idea here. As I see it one lot see another lot using something to advantage and think 'we can do that' and copy them.
To expand this period was not feudal so people were able to move around a bit and see the world. Perhaps see some soldiers in a rich city sporting the latest fashion in weapons and armour and think this must be good stuff and look to copy design when they get home.

[Imperial Dave]

Stretching the point a little and by analogy

How often do we see people wear team kit to emulate their heroes (football, cricket, cycling, tiddlywinks etc)? Also using the most up to date equipment and kit extends this analogy. Just because someone buys a £12k bike, doesn't mean he is Tadej Pogacar

The desire to feel included and part of the gang runs deep in human consciousness. A more relevant theme might be reflected in the observation that military belts became fashionable in Britain by lots of the male population in the late roman period

Obviously we are looking at specific weaponry and their trends and so there is probably another edge to it than just wanting to ape the opposition so to speak. However, if someone sees new technology and sees it used well they may want to obtain that to at least give themselves a fighting chance even if the training and tactical nous lags behind

[Jim Webster]

I confess that I wonder, not about the Western Mediterranean Military Koine but the Eastern 

Were the Aetolians Western or Eastern? And what about the Thracians and those in Asia minor like the Phrygians and Lydians etc.

[Keraunos]

I confess that I wonder, not about the Western Mediterranean Military Koine but the Eastern 

Were the Aetolians Western or Eastern? And what about the Thracians and those in Asia minor like the Phrygians and Lydians etc.

You have posed the same question I raised on another thread this morning, only you have done so more succinctly.