Rethinking 'Dark Age' armies of Britain

[skb777]

Ability to muster fighting men is a very nebulous query and answer. It depends on the polity which of course is the proverbial jelly-nail-wall conundrum

I think the use of foederati was much more widespread than previously thought especially in the SE.

Gildas tells us that Ambrosius was able to organise effective resistance and contain the Saxon incursion. Arthur is then suppose to have carried this on afterwards. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle does, by omission, record a period of no major military or territorial gains between 519 and 552. This suggests the Saxon advance was halted as Gildas said. 

Blame is traditionally heaped upon Vortigern for his mistake in hiring the Saxon mercenaries. Marsh points out that Vortigern was only following the Roman practice of enlisting ethnic populations as auxiliary units of the army.

It isn't called the Dark Ages for nothing. Isn't that the attraction though, you can make it fit into whatever you want it to be?

[Imperial Dave]

If only we knew where he was based when he wrote his diatribe! 

I've always assumed it was Guildford - Gildas' ford 

Ooooo....nice

[Imperial Dave]

Ability to muster fighting men is a very nebulous query and answer. It depends on the polity which of course is the proverbial jelly-nail-wall conundrum

I think the use of foederati was much more widespread than previously thought especially in the SE.

Gildas tells us that Ambrosius was able to organise effective resistance and contain the Saxon incursion. Arthur is then suppose to have carried this on afterwards. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle does, by omission, record a period of no major military or territorial gains between 519 and 552. This suggests the Saxon advance was halted as Gildas said. 

Blame is traditionally heaped upon Vortigern for his mistake in hiring the Saxon mercenaries. Marsh points out that Vortigern was only following the Roman practice of enlisting ethnic populations as auxiliary units of the army.

It isn't called the Dark Ages for nothing. Isn't that the attraction though, you can make it fit into whatever you want it to be?

And the possibility that the early part is actually a civil war with foederati used on both sides...

[skb777]

Certainly and considering there had been a plague which had left so many dead they couldn't bury the bodies it isn't likely they had much choice.

[Imperial Dave]

Another aspect that needs factoring in

[Cantabrigian]

And the possibility that the early part is actually a civil war with foederati used on both sides...

Certainly and considering there had been a plague which had left so many dead they couldn't bury the bodies it isn't likely they had much choice.

Read together , those two make it sound like both sides were using catapults to fire dead foederati at each other.

Another aspect that needs factoring in

I look forward to seeing it in your rules!

[Imperial Dave]

Me too 

[Keraunos]

Read together , those two make it sound like both sides were using catapults to fire dead foederati at each other.

I look forward to seeing it in your rules!

Indeed.  Would a catapulted corpse have a greater or lesser impact than a flung javelin?  There is much to ponder here.  Perhaps this is a subject for Tod to do some more experimental work on to provide guidance for the wargamer. 

[Imperial Dave]

A corpse may lead to a nasty disease later don't forget 

[Keraunos]

A corpse may lead to a nasty disease later don't forget 

Do you mean that you are contemplating wargame rules that allow for the lingering effects of disease as well as the immediate impact of weapons?

[Imperial Dave]

If it's a campaign 

[RobertGargan]

Stuart Laycock and Christpher Gidlow, King Arthur's Country, 2024, argue that in post Roman Britain the underlying Celtic tribal system remained in place – the basis for the civitates, reflecting a patchwork of Romano British kingdoms – providing military leaders the resources to resist the attacks of the Saxons.  Indeed, they suggest the stabilising effect of Ambrosius/Arthur/British leader(s) in central Britain, in the civitas of the Dobunni, and later, Penda's leadership in the new multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, Mercian kingdom, expanding from the area of the River Severn and Avon, preserved many Celtic settlements in central Britain, slowing down Saxon encroachment and ensuring the survival of Wales.
The authors, evidencing recent and earlier finds state that "Most British militiamen in the fourth and early fifth century were probably armed with spears, knives and shields.  The well-equipped would have had swords.  There is evidence, however, that suggest that fighters in Dubunni territory were, in addition, equipped with a specific type of weighted dart used by the late Roman army."  They mention that the discovery of hoards of silver in Roman Britain implies much wealth owned by native refugees and that the Dobunni probably remained powerful, becoming a significant centre of native resistance.  Maybe, such wealth could fund respectable cavalry.
If there was never one Britain but many tribal "kingdoms" united in culture, maybe commanders of British warbands were able to traverse the landscape and "tap into" many disparate military resources as Caratacus did during the earlier Roman invasion.
I know little about this era, but I always feel that weaponry was sort of hidden until needed – as in Boudica's sudden revolt.  I wonder if Penda was able to recruit warriors from many peoples in the same armed units after the stalling of the earlier Saxon advance from the east.  This probably contributes nothing to firming up wargame lists!
Anyway, I've moved away from the focus of discussion and shall cease rambling!

Robert Gargan

[Imperial Dave]

It's all good stuff Robert and thanks for the reply

I am currently investigating the Gewisse and the Hwicce. It's a big puzzle but am.enjoying the challenge of teasing out a narrative

[Jim Webster]

I know little about this era, but I always feel that weaponry was sort of hidden until needed – as in Boudica's sudden revolt.  I wonder if Penda was able to recruit warriors from many peoples in the same armed units after the stalling of the earlier Saxon advance from the east.  This probably contributes nothing to firming up wargame lists!
Anyway, I've moved away from the focus of discussion and shall cease rambling!

Robert Gargan

For the average infantryman with spear, shield and knife, I wonder how much hiding was necessary. A longish heavy knife (or short hafted axe) would just be a tool that every peasant farmstead would have.
Every peasant would be used to making long straight shafts of forks and hoes etc, so it wouldn't take them long to produce a spear shaft and spear heads on their own don't take a lot of hiding.
As for shields   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM6-b8-XBi4&t=7s   shows how to make the wooden board

[skb777]

When the legions were recalled not everyone would have left. There would have been retired veterans who will have settled there along with troops who would have married local woman and started families. Auxiliaries would also have been hired from the within the isles. So a reasonably sized 'Romanised" regular force would still have been there.