How did the battle of the Spartans vs Athenians that I flagged up earlier pan out?
Well, after getting rocked back on their heels to start with, the Spartiates on the right of the line managed to disorder the Athenian allies facing them while their few surviving peltasts behaved heroically in holding off hordes (well, little ones at any rate) of horse archers and javelin armed cavalry. Although there was a big hole at the other end of the Spartan line, it looked like the Spartiates would sweep through at their end and then settle the hash of the rest of the Athenian line.
But, it didn't happen. Time and again the Spartiates activated and either failed to land their blows or the Athenian allies saved. For their part, the Athenian side was failing to make any headway with their light troops on the Spartan right - where they had a 3:1 advantage - while seeing the Spartan allies light units chew up the Athenian hoplites who had broken through the line on the first clash. Gradually the units in the centre on both sides became disordered but neither side could land a killing blow.
Suddenly the ground shifted on both flanks. The Spartiates finally broke their opponents, as did the Perioikoi holding position next to them, while at the other end, the Athenians broke the stubborn resistance of the last allied hoplite unit on the Spartan left wing. Who could get across to the centre quickly enough to tip the balance?
The race went to the Athenians. The Perioikoi managed to get across but couldn't manage an activation to charge into the Athenian flank, allowing a last chance to the Athenians, which they took successfully, securing the last of the Spartan victory medals while still holding four of their own.
The game certainly ran quickly and smoothly. It is similar to 'Strength & Honour' in the way units move around but the combat mechanics differ. In particular, the effect of flanking in the latter ruleset is devastating but under TTS it seems simply to add an extra front to the fighting without the flanking unit getting any advantage in the combat due to its position. Mind you, given that a unit can activate several times in the course of a turn, trying to get a hit each time, this may be powerful enough. It just felt a bit different to what we've been used to. In the middle of the game tension built up over several turns as both sides experienced failures to activate wings, or having lots of activations and failing to land a solid blow. I can see it being a fun club game with several players on each side, which the mechanics would seem to allow for very easily.
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Athenians advance, pushing forward their cavalry in the foreground
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The Spartan cavalry in the foreground disappear
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Heavy going in the centre
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A Spartan unit in the centre is broken before the Perioikoi can hit the Athenian flank, handing victory to those wretched arty types.
Good stuff!
Apologies for posting this on your battle report thread - also good stuff. I should have opened a new topic.
There you go - sorry for the bland title
Thank you.
No worries! I bought a couple of sets of half-scale playing cards for 'To the Strongest' so they don't take up as much space (a quarter of the area).
Cheers
Simon
I think I might invest in making up some tokens for activation but keep cards for the cut and thrust of combat. I'm sorely tempted by the lovely replica ancient coins that Simon Miller sells from his website as Victory Medals. David Brown was using them in his game at last year's SoA convention and they looked so much better than the plastic poker chips I've used.
Rereading the article in the latest slingshot and then going back over the rules this morning, I realized we went through the entire game yesterday doing combat wrong! I'd completely overlooked that the defender hits back after the attacker has had a whack. I need a new brain rather than a new pair of glasses, I think.
TtS! always produces fast and furious action. Card draws can wreck the best laid plans.
Where did the Greek horse archers come from? I've seen information that indicated that the Athenians had some foot archers but not come across any suggestions that any state put them on horses.
Quote from: dwkay57 on Aug 14, 2025, 08:10 AMWhere did the Greek horse archers come from? I've seen information that indicated that the Athenians had some foot archers but not come across any suggestions that any state put them on horses.
The short answer is that they came out of my box of Persian cavalry because I don't have enough Greek light cavalry yet. The long answer is that I have a niggling memory that the Athenians did have some horse archers but I can't remember what source I might have for this - discounting imaginary army lists that go with some rule sets.
Quote from: dwkay57 on Aug 14, 2025, 08:10 AMWhere did the Greek horse archers come from?
Mounted Scythian mercenaries? I recall from way back the Athenians had Scythian "police" archers.
Quote from: dwkay57 on Aug 14, 2025, 08:10 AMWhere did the Greek horse archers come from? I've seen information that indicated that the Athenians had some foot archers but not come across any suggestions that any state put them on horses.
Only Athens is recorded as having any:
Quote from: Thuc. II.13.8Pericles also showed them that they had twelve hundred horse including mounted archers, with sixteen hundred archers unmounted
We have a thread discussing them at https://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=1334.0
In 'Cavalry and the Character of Classical Warfare' p.191, Roel Konijnendijk refers to the Athenians fielding 1,000 cavalry and 200 horse archers through the use of subsidies.
Yes looking back the WRG lists (1981) does include 10 Athenian mercenary horse archers which must refer to the 200 referred to by Konijnendijk.
But the "only figures available" is much more historically accurate reason :)
Quote from: Jon Freitag on Aug 14, 2025, 03:35 AMTtS! always produces fast and furious action. Card draws can wreck the best laid plans.
too much so or just about right in terms of frequency and effect...?
Quote from: Imperial Dave on Aug 15, 2025, 07:29 AMQuote from: Jon Freitag on Aug 14, 2025, 03:35 AMTtS! always produces fast and furious action. Card draws can wreck the best laid plans.
too much so or just about right in terms of frequency and effect...?
For my answer to that you will have to wait for the article I have promised to Rich T comparing TTS, Strength & Honour and Control to Catastrophe, but to do that I need more play testing, but to do that I need my son to get his Tai Ping armies off my gaming table, which doesn't look as if it is going to happen much before the end of next week >:(
Tai Ping....? are you sure it isn't Lai Se?
Just about right.
always good to gauge other people's thoughts on such things
After several games of To the Strongest, time came to try something different, that being the revised version of my own 'Twilight of the Graeco-roman Age'. To keep the trial simple, I lined up Spartans and Allies against Athenians and Allies, with only a sprinkling of light troops and cavalry. As my intended opponent was struck down by Apollo's arrow in the form of some dreaded lurgi, I ran the game solo.
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This shows the initial dispositions. The Spartans - 3 lochoi of drilled hoplites (one veteran and determined, one other determined - which means both get an extra morale point and the veteran gets +1 on its morale tests) supported by some peltasts are on the right at the top of the picture, facing the Athenian allies - 5 undrilled hoplites units, 3 of which were raw (-1 on morale tests) supported by some Cretan archers. They were lined up along a ridge and had no intention of coming off it to face the Spartans on level ground. To the bottom left are the Athenians, another 5 undrilled hoplites units, one being veteran, two raw. On their flank are a couple of units of Thessalian cavalry and some Thracian peltasts. They are looking across to the Spartan allies who are also lined up on top of a ridge in a double line of 6 undrilled hoplites units, 4 of which are raw, supported by some slingers and a couple of cavalry units. The Athenian plan is to march swiftly forwards and smash the Spartans allies with the aid of the good Thessalian cavalry before the Spartans can get to grips with the Athenian allies.
On the white card at the bottom right of the picture can be seen a small piece of broken pottery - an ostrakon. Each side drew one of these to see what favours the gods might bestow upon them. The Athenians drew one that indicated that the gods needed men prepared to sacrifice themselves rather than goats. Their general, a good class II chap, managed to parlay this with best Athenian oratory into upgrading one of his units to 'Determined' (he rolled a 4). The Spartans drew 'The Club of Hercules' which gave them the chance to give a random number of units ability to inflict a -1 on opponents on their first melee tests. Sadly the Spartan general on this occasion was not an eloquent man like Brasidas. His speech to his men, possibly quite laconic, failed to inspire them (he rolled a 2) and they were left with nothing but their native brutality to serve them in battle.
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The opening turn saw the Spartans (in this view on the bottom left) move forward and out to the right quickly - under the rules, hoplites have to start with a move that shifts them to the right. Also, if out of range of enemy intervention they can move an extra step. They were also able to use their general's command point to get a third forward move. The Athenians also moved, drifting to their right, so away from any risk of meeting the Spartans half way, but failed to pass the action test needed for the general giving them an extra move. Might the Spartans get to grips with the Athenian allies before the Athenians could strike?
Both the Spartans and the Athenians bounded forward to the full extent possible on the next turn, but then things started to unravel for both. The Thessalian cavalry charged uphill at the first line of Spartan allied cavalry which lost a morale test and had to fall back behind the second line. The Thessalians failed their pursuit test and careened into the second line in disorder and proceeded not merely to fail their own morale test but to be routed. This caused the Spartans second line cavalry to race off like Royalists into the Thessalian second line where they failed their morale test and had to retreat behind the original first line that had just regrouped. Sure as eggs are eggs, the remaining Thessalians failed their test not to pursue, ran uphill into the Spartans, failed a morale test and routed as well. So, as the Athenian general led his hoplites into a beautifully executed charge into the Spartan allied line, securing an outflanking position on the right, it was with the knowledge that his flank was now itself wide open if the Spartan cavalry could regroup and fall on it. To add to his woes, the first couple of morale tests imposed on the enemy hoplites failed to shake them while his own front rank quickly lost a couple of morale points
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The Athenian attack uphill against the Spartan allies does not fare well.
But what of the other flank? Here, the Cretan archers forced the Spartan veterans to take an action test for being under missile fire before they could move uphill - the Spartan hoplites had moved forwards so quickly that their supporting peltasts had not been able to keep up and could not screen them from the archers. The Spartans failed the test, failed the general's attempt to retake the test and decided to halt rather than risk piecemeal attacks that would give unnecessary advantages to the enemy. Perhaps some wise Spartan had called out to the general that an uphill attack against a more numerous foe was not the height of wisdom?
Back on the Athenian's side, the Thracian peltasts managed to tie down the Spartan cavalry for a bit. This allowed the hoplites to make another attempt to storm the hill, but while causing morale losses to a couple of enemy hoplite units and avoiding further losses themselves they could not get a push back.
The Spartans then surged forwards together. Two of the three lochoi inflicted morale losses on the Athenian allies but failed to push them off the ridge. The Veterans not only failed to damage their opponents but then were pushed back down the hill themselves!
Another chance for the Athenians to push through on their side. They failed again, and now one of the Spartan cavalry units was in position to charge the flank of the hoplite line, supported by slingers. In a hideous roll of the morale dice, the Athenian veterans whose determination had been stirred up by their general were indeed sacrificed instead of goats. The Spartan cavalry, in keeping with earlier practice, failed a pursuit test and advanced to be caught in its own flank by the Thracian peltasts, though without effect.
So, back to the Spartans. Could they show the Athenians how to win an uphill battle? The Veterans charged uphill again, failed to crack their opponents and then routed on their own morale test - leading to yet another precipitate pursuit by the allied hoplites, which left them in no position to help their remaining friends unless they could do an about turn which, being undrilled, they had little hope of doing. Clearly disturbed by the rout of the veterans, the next unit in line - which had inflicted another morale loss on its own opponent, so needed only one more to destroy it, rolled for its own morale test and got a rout result! All was not lost as the Spartan general was close enough to allow a retake. The bones were rolled again. The lochos lost a morale point but the unit was not routed. However, a natural 4 had been rolled, which spelled the death of the Spartan general!
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The Spartan general's number has come up!
The third of the Spartan lochoi had also inflicted a morale loss on its immediate opponent but in the Athenian move phase an uncommitted allied unit that had been trying for some time to turn to join the action finally passed an action test to do so and hit the Spartans in the flank. With a -2 deduction on their morale test, the Spartans rolled a 5, which brought them down to the dreaded 3 = rout. This loss pushed the Spartan wing over the point where it needed to take a morale test. With the general dead there was only a 50:50 chance of passing and they failed. With the Spartans broken, their allies had to take a morale test. They also failed! The Athenians had escaped by a whisker and promptly went home to tell tales of their great heroism in achieving victory over the dreaded Spartans.
Although a test with a live opponent would make for a better discussion of how the rules are working, I have to say that it all seemed to run very smoothly. Another couple of trials with different troop types, hopefully with other players, look possible next week before bags have to be packed to fly back to the UK for the Society Convention (and a few other minor matters :) ).
brilliant work....really enjoyed that and the explanation was great for me. Very interesting set of rules :)