Richard III's closest relatives believe they have tracked down their illustrious forebear's last resting-place: under a council car-park.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/archaeologists-richard-iii-dig-032624776.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/archaeologists-richard-iii-dig-032624776.html)
"The son of a descendant of Richard III's eldest sister was on site as what is believed to be the first ever search for the lost grave of an anointed King of England began in a city centre car park.
Canadian-born Michael Ibsen watched as archaeological experts from the University of Leicester used ground penetrating radar equipment to find the best spots to begin their search at the car park off Greyfriars in Leicester.
His mother Joy Ibsen, who died four years ago aged 82, was a direct descendant of the King's eldest sister Anne of York
Born in the UK, the journalist, who was the 16th generation niece of Richard III, emigrated to Canada in her 20s. Mr Ibsen, a furniture maker who is living in London, said his mother would have been thrilled by the project.
The 55-year-old, who was born in Canada, said: "The family were entertained when she got the call several years ago from a historian claiming she was a descendant. We thought it was more of a story than anything else but as time went by it became more serious and a DNA connection to Richard's eldest sister Anne of York was found."
Richard III was brought to Leicester where he was buried in the church of the Franciscan Friary, known as Greyfriars, after he fell in the Battle of Bosworth in 1485. But the exact whereabouts of the church have become lost over time.
While hopes are high at finding the site, which is currently being used as a car park for council offices, the experts are less confident about finding the monarch's remains during the two-week search.
Rumours say the monarch's bones could have been thrown into the River Soar after the dissolution of the monasteries.
Richard Buckley, co-director of the Archaeology Service at the university, said: "It is quite a long shot but it's a very exciting project. We don't know the whereabouts of any of the friary buildings at the moment. We don't know precisely where the body would have been buried but we suspect it would be in the choir or near the alter."
If bones are found they will be assessed for trauma to the skeleton, as the monarch was killed in battle, then be subject to DNA analysis. King Richard III, the last Plantagenet, ruled England from 1483 until he was defeated at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485."
If the skeleton is found, it should also resolve the question of whether the king really was a 'crook-back' once and for all.
Patrick
I'm no expert, but I was chatting to a medieval military historian yesterday and he says there's no chance: the bones were chucked in the river during the dissolution!
Paul
Isn't "the son of a descendant" still just a descendant?
Quote from: Paul Innes on Aug 26, 2012, 08:04 AM
I'm no expert, but I was chatting to a medieval military historian yesterday and he says there's no chance: the bones were chucked in the river during the dissolution!
Paul
that was discussed in at least one article, apparently some people think the story was started by a 17th century antiquarian who was miffed because he couldn't find the bones (but was looking in the wrong place)
But of course he might have been right
Jim
Quote from: Mark on Aug 26, 2012, 08:14 AM
Isn't "the son of a descendant" still just a descendant?
Thinking about it (too much time on my hands) the DNA connection is probably established through mitochondrial DNA, which is only traced I think through the female line ... still a daft construction though.
Mitochondrial DNA is indeed inherited solely in the female line. (In humans, other animals, and sundry other eukaryotes. Some eukaryotes don't deign to have separate sexes, of course, and other do have paternal inheritance of mitochondria. And some don't have mitochondria at all.)
Quote from: Mark on Aug 26, 2012, 08:14 AM
Isn't "the son of a descendant" still just a descendant?
technically perhaps not, you can be an adopted child so you would be someone's son but not their descendant.
Jim
And if anyone is wondering what a eukaryote is, it is any creature with complex cell structures enclosed within membranes - which distinguishes eukaryotes from prokaryotes like bacteria, the key and defining complex bit being a nucleus with genetic material.
And yes, the son of a descendant is still a descendant, otherwise we would not have grandfathers ... but you know journalists!
Patrick
And they reckon they've found some human bones - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19561018 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19561018).
Very interesting. Certainly you can see why they are starting to get excited!
Jim
And now ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9538546/Archaeologists-believe-they-have-found-skeleton-of-King-Richard-III.html
And the announcement came out earlier today: it is indeed Richard III
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9846693/Richard-III-skeleton-is-the-king.html
Quite exciting news! It was just on Belgian television. The comments were of the typical 'informed journalist' type but they also showed some re- enactors and a spokesperson for a Richard III Society who made it a very interesting item.
Did I hear correctly that there was an arrowhead lodged in his spine?
I am sure it is RIII and the planned tourist attractions are not pre-ordained, just as I am sure of football match resul...
Quote from: WillieB on Feb 04, 2013, 06:03 PM
Did I hear correctly that there was an arrowhead lodged in his spine?
Yes.
Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/04/us-britain-richard-idUSBRE9130BW20130204 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/04/us-britain-richard-idUSBRE9130BW20130204) report "A metal fragment was found in the vertebrae."
Yahoo News http://uk.news.yahoo.com/richard-iiis-remains-found-council-car-park-104153573.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/richard-iiis-remains-found-council-car-park-104153573.html) states: "The skeleton, with severe trauma to the skull and an arrow in the back, was unearthed on the first day of a three-week dig at the site of what is believed to have been the choir of Greyfriars Church."
The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-skeleton-last-plantagenet-king-live?oo=0 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-skeleton-last-plantagenet-king-live?oo=0) states: "He appears to have a battle wound in the skull and a barber metal arrowhead was found between vertebrae in his upper back." ('Barber' here should be 'barbed'. The Guardian is traditionally noted for typographical errors.)
Actually, the arrow turned out to be a nail in the grave fill, according to the Channel 4 documentary last night. The body had 10 wounds, some at least post mortem. Death was adjudged to have been caused by a huge cutting blow - perhaps a pollaxe - to the back of the skull.
The Richard III society didn't come out well from the documentary - a strange bunch devoted to a fantasy Richard, in denial about 15th century realpolitik. I'm sure the real Ricardians are a much more nuanced bunch and that chose the fringe for dramatic effect - that's TV I suppose. University of Leicester and the other assorted experts came out well though. And the disbelief as it dawned on them that, not only was the building they were looking for in the trench, but they had come down on the right bit of the building and it contained a grave, and that grave contained a skeleton that looked very like the person they were after..... this broke all the rules of archaeology :)
Absolutely fascinating
Truth is stranger than fiction
Planned reburial in Leicester Cathedral, they were saying today, though a faction in York want him reburied in York Minster because of his undoubted ties with that city.
But he was King of England - why not Westminster Abbey?
My Sister-in-Law is a member of the RIIIS - the ones they showed were the sane ones...
In a Leicester car park for that length of time without being clamped? I suspect heads will roll at the next council gathering..........
Mike
And there is the scandal of why he could not find a horse when he needed one ... recent news may shed some light upon this! ;D