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Carrhae reminds me of Publius Venditius, the Roman general who crushed Parthian attempts to capitalise on Carrhae. I have no idea how to replicate his battles on a miniatures table except by introducing a special rule that hands the battles to the Romans, namely the inability of the Parthian LH to evade a charge by Roman foot (!). Here's Wiki's summary of the battle:

When the Parthians got to the town, which sat on a small hill, they encountered Roman legions confidently formed in battle order on the slopes. The Parthians rushed to attack - whether this order came from Pacorus or was a spontaneous charge is unknown. In any case, Ventidius ordered his troops, who had the advantage of high ground, to attack the horse-archers advancing up the slope. The horse-archers were forced into close-quartered combat against the legionaries and suffered heavily for it, for they were unsuited for such combat. The Parthian cavalry's will eventually broke and panic spread, many of the horse archers being driven down the slope where they crashed into their fellows in their desperation to escape. The horse-archers eventually fled or fell.

Parthian heavy cavalry, which was stationed at the bottom of the hill, was enveloped and surrounded by the legionaries. Instead of immediately attacking with the legionaries, Ventidius made use of his slingers to rain down projectiles on the Parthian heavy cavalry, which included Pacorus himself. After the barrage was lifted the legionaries moved in and were quickly able to identify Pacorus because of his standard and expensive armour. Pacorus was eventually slain along with his bodyguards, and the remaining cavalry broke and attempted to flee from their entrapment, which not all managed to do.

It is one of the interesting examples where infantry charged cavalry

But were the Parthians in an "uncontrolled advance" or a "wild charge" or did they get too close and have to shoot at "really close range" to avoid any penalties for shooting uphill and failed their movement test for trying to evade on difficult terrain? ;)

I suspect the latter to be honest

Cassius Dio, 49.20:

Quote1 In this way he met Pacorus in Syria Cyrrhestica and conquered him. For when he had not prevented them from crossing the river and had not attacked them at once after they had got across, they imputed sloth and weakness to the Romans and therefore marched against their camp, although it was on high ground, expecting to take it without resistance.
2 But when a sally was suddenly made, the assailants, being cavalry, were driven back down the slope without difficulty; and although at the foot they defended themselves valiantly, the majority of them being in armour, yet they were confused by the unexpectedness of the onslaught and by stumbling over one another and were defeated by the heavy-armed men and especially by the slingers; for these struck them from a distance with their powerful missiles and so were exceedingly difficult for them to withstand.
3 The fall of Pacorus in this struggle was a very great loss to them; for as soon as they perceived that their leader had perished, although a few men zealously fought for his body, yet when these also were slain, all the rest gave way. Some of them desired to escape homeward across the bridge and were unable to do so, being cut off and killed before they could reach it, and others fled for refuge to Antiochus in Commagene.
4 Ventidius easily brought into subjection all the rest out of Syria, which had been hesitating while awaiting the outcome of the war, by sending the prince's head about through the different cities; for the Syrians felt unusual affection for Pacorus on account of his justice and mildness, an affection as great as they had felt for the best kings that had ever ruled them.

What is intriguing me about this episode is that it is one of the rare examples we have of infantry charging cavalry

Do the examples we do have of infantry charging cavalry usually record that the infantry made contact? If the typical response was for the cavalry to successfully evade, then there was probably not too much emphasis on recording those cases.

As far as I can tell, the theory is that if the infantry charged, their formation would get looser and the cavalry would gleefully countercharge them and just smash straight through.

Another couple of examples to be found at https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ammian/24*.html

"The Persians opposed to us serried bands of mail-called horsemen in such close order that the gleam of moving bodies covered with densely fitting plates of iron dazzled the eyes of those who looked upon them, while the whole throng of horse was protected by coverings of leather. The cavalry was backed up by companies of infantry, who, protected by oblong, curved shields covered with wickerwork and raw hides, advanced in very close order. Behind these were elephants, looking like walking hills, and, by the movements of their enormous bodies, they threatened destruction to all who came near them, dreaded as they were from past experience.

9 Hereupon the emperor, following Homeric tactics,⁠59 filled the space between the lines with the weakest of the infantry, fearing that if they formed part of the van and shamefully gave way, they might carry off all the rest with them; or if they were posted in the rear behind all the centuries, they might run off at will with no one to check them. He himself with the light-armed auxiliaries hastened now to the front, and now to the rear.

10 So, when both sides were near enough to look each other in the face, the Romans, gleaming  p463 in their crested helmets and swinging their shields as if to the rhythm of the anapaestic foot,⁠60 advanced slowly; and the light-armed skirmishers opened the battle by hurling their javelins, while the earth everywhere was turned to dust by both sides and swept away in a swift whirlwind. 11 And when the battle-cry was raised in the usual manner by both sides and the trumpets' blare increased the ardour of the men, here and there they fought hand-to‑hand with spears and drawn swords; and the soldiers were freer from the danger of the arrows the more quickly they forced their way into the enemy's ranks. Meanwhile Julian was busily engaged in giving support to those who gave way and in spurring on the laggards, playing the part both of a valiant fellow-soldier and of a commander. 12 Finally, the first battle-line of the Persians began to waver, and at first slowly, then at quick step, turned back and made for the neighbouring city with their armour well heated up.⁠61 Our soldiers pursued them, wearied though they also were after fighting on the scorching plains from sunrise to the end of the day, and following close at their heels and hacking at their legs and backs, drove the whole force with Pigranes, the Surena, and Narseus, their most distinguished generals, in headlong flight to the very walls of Ctesiphon. 13 And they would have pressed in through the gates of the city, mingled with the throng of fugitives, had not the general called Victor, who had himself received a flesh-wound in the shoulder from an arrow, raising his hand and  p465 shouting, restrained them; for he feared that the excited soldiers, if they rashly entered the circuit of the walls and could find no way out, might be overcome by weight of numbers."

Did the Sassanids charge or Roman infantry just advance into them?

And https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ammian/25*.html

"Leaving this place as well, the whole army had come to a district called Maranga, when near daybreak a huge force of Persians appeared with Merena, general of their cavalry, two sons of the king, and many other magnates. 12 Moreover, all the companies were clad in iron, and all parts of their bodies were covered with thick plates, so fitted that the stiff joints conformed with those of their limbs; and the forms of human faces were so skilfully fitted to their heads, that, since their entire bodies were plated with metal, arrows that fell upon them could lodge only where they could see a little through tiny openings fitted to the circle of the eye, or where through the tips of their noses they were able to get a little breath. 13 Of these some, who were armed with pikes, stood so motionless that you would think them held fast by clamps of bronze. Hard by, the archers (for that nation has especially trusted in this art from the very cradle)⁠1 were bending their flexible bows with such wide-stretched arms that the strings touched their right breasts, while the arrow-points were close to their left hands; and by a highly skilful stroke of the fingers the arrows flew hissing forth and brought with them deadly wounds. 14 Behind them the gleaming elephants, with their awful figures and savage, gaping mouths could scarcely be endured by the faint-hearted; and their trumpeting, their odour, and their strange aspect alarmed  p483 the horses still more. 15 Seated upon these, their drivers carried knives with handles bound to their right hands, remembering the disaster suffered at Nisibis; and if the strength of the driver proved no match for the excited brute, that he might not turn upon his own people (as happened then) and crush masses of them to the ground, he would with a mighty stroke cut through the vertebra which separates the head from the neck. For long ago Hasdrubal, brother of Hannibal, discovered that in that way brutes of this kind could quickly be killed.⁠2 16 Although these sights caused no little fear, the emperor, guarded by troops of armed men and with his trustworthy generals, full of confidence, as the great and dangerous power of the enemy demanded, drew up his soldiers in the form of a crescent with curving wings to meet the enemy. 17 And in order that the onset of the bowmen might not throw our ranks into confusion, he advanced at a swift pace, and so ruined the effectiveness of the arrows.⁠3 Then the usual signal for battle was given, and the Roman infantry in close order with mighty effort drove the serried ranks of the enemy before them. 18 And in the heat of the combat that followed, the clash of shields, the shouts of the men, and the doleful sound of the whirring arrows continued without intermission. The plains were covered with blood and dead bodies, but the Persian losses were greater; for they often lacked endurance in battle and could with difficulty maintain a close contest man to man, since they were accustomed to fight bravely at long range,  but if they perceived that their forces were giving way, as they retreated they would shoot their arrows back like a shower of rain and keep the enemy from a bold pursuit. So by the weight of great strength the Parthians were driven back, and when the signal for retreat was given in the usual manner, our soldiers, long wearied by the fiery course of the sun, returned to their tents, encouraged to dare greater deeds of valour in the future."

Again a swift Roman advance apparently to avoid the archery but were they too quick for the cavalry to charge?

But earlier we had Lucullus  at Tigranocerta

"28 1 Saying this, and bidding his men be of good courage, he crossed the river, and led the way in person against the enemy. He wore a steel breastplate of glittering scales, and a tasselled cloak, and at once let his sword flash forth from its scabbard, indicating that they must forthwith come to close quarters with men who fought with long range missiles, and eliminate, by the rapidity of their onset, the space in which archery would be effective. 2 But when he saw that the mail-clad horsemen, on whom the greatest reliance was placed, were stationed at the foot of a considerable hill which was crowned by a broad and level space, and that the approach to this was a matter of only •four stadia, and neither rough nor steep, he ordered his Thracian and Gallic horsemen to attack the enemy in the flank, and to parry their long spears with their own short swords. 3 (Now the sole resource of the mail-clad horsemen is their long spear, and they  p563 have none other whatsoever, either in defending themselves or attacking their enemies, owing to the weight and rigidity of their armour; in this they are, as it were, immured.) Then he himself, with two cohorts, hastened eagerly towards the hill, his soldiers following with all their might, because they saw him ahead of them in armour, enduring all the fatigue of a foot-soldier, and pressing his way along. Arrived at the top, and standing in the most conspicuous spot, he cried with a loud voice, "The day is ours, the day is ours, my fellow soldiers!" 4 With these words, he led his men against the mail-clad horsemen, ordering them not to hurl their javelins yet, but taking each his own man, to smite the enemy's legs and thighs, which are the only parts of these mail-clad horsemen left exposed. However, there was no need of this mode of fighting, for the enemy did not await the Romans, but, with loud cries and in most disgraceful flight, they hurled themselves and their horses, with all their weight, upon the ranks of their own infantry, before it had so much as begun to fight, and so all those tens of thousands were defeated without the infliction of a wound or the sight of blood. 5 But the great slaughter began at once when they fled, or rather tried to fly, for they were prevented from really doing so by the closeness and depth of their own ranks. Tigranes rode away at the very outset with a few attendants, and took to flight. Seeing his son also in the same plight, he took off the diadem from his head and, in tears, gave it to him, bidding him save himself as best he could by another route. 6 The young man, however, did not venture to assume the diadem, but gave it to his most trusted slave for safe keeping.  p565 This slave happened to be captured, and was brought to Lucullus, and thus even the diadem of Tigranes became a part of the booty. It is said that more than a hundred thousand of the enemy's infantry perished, while of the cavalry only a few, all told, made their escape. Of the Romans, on the other hand, only a hundred were wounded, and only five killed."


We get the same battle from Appian
https://www.livius.org/sources/content/appian/appian-the-mithridatic-wars/appian-the-mithridatic-wars-17#85


"[85] While Sextilius was doing this, Tigranes brought together some 250,000 foot and 50,000 horse. He sent about 6,000 of the latter to Tigranocerta, who broke through the Roman line to the tower, and seized and brought away the king's concubines.

With the rest of his army Tigranes marched against Lucullus. Mithridates, who was now for the first time admitted to his presence, advised him not to come to close quarters with the Romans, but to circle around them with his horse only, to devastate the country, and reduce them by famine if possible, in the same way that he had been served by Lucullus at Cyzicus, where he lost his army without fighting.

Tigranes derided such generalship and advanced and made preparations for battle. When he saw how small the Roman force was, he said jestingly, "If they are here as ambassadors they are too many; if as enemies, altogether too few."

Lucullus saw a hill favorably situated in the rear of Tigranes. He pushed his horse forward from his own front to worry the enemy and draw them upon himself, retiring as they came up, so that the barbarians should break their own ranks in the pursuit. Then he sent his own infantry around to the hill and took possession of it unobserved. When he saw the enemy pursuing as though they had won the fight, and scattered in all directions, with their entire baggage train lying at the foot of the hill, he exclaimed, "Soldiers, we are victorious," and dashed first upon their baggage carriers.

These immediately fled in confusion and ran against their own infantry, and the infantry against the cavalry. Presently the rout was complete. Those who had been drawn a long distance in pursuit of the Roman horse, the latter turned upon and destroyed. The baggage train came into collision with others tumultuously. They were all packed together in such a crowd that nobody could see clearly from what quarter their discomfiture proceeded. There was a great slaughter. Nobody stopped to plunder, for Lucullus had forbidden it with threats of punishment, so that they passed by bracelets and necklaces on the road, and continued killing for a distance of 20 kilometers until nightfall. Then they betook themselves to plunder with the permission of Lucullus."


I get the impression that infantry could charge cavalry if cavalry had let them get too close, even to their front. They could charge them from the flank, if the infantry are again too close for the cavalry to react. They can charge them in poor terrain.

Also if there was what you might call a 'standing brawl' more infantry could be 'fed in'

Also close to the Ventidius example, of course, Caesar's fourth line charging Pompey's cavalry at Pharsalus.

Yes
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Caesar/Civil_Wars/3D*.html#85


"At the same time the horse on Pompeius' left wing, according to orders, charged in a body, and the whole multitude of archers poured forth. Our cavalry, failing to withstand their attack, gradually quitted their position and retired. Pompeius' cavalry pressed forward all the more eagerly, and deploying by squadrons began to surround our lines on their exposed flank. Caesar, observing it, gave the signal to his fourth line, which he had composed of six cohorts. These advanced rapidly and with colours flying attacked Pompeius' horse with such fury that not one of them stood his ground, and all, wheeling round, not only quitted the position but forthwith in hurried flight made for the highest hills. When these were dislodged all the archers and slingers, left defenceless, without support, were slain. With the same onslaught the cohorts surrounded the left wing, the Pompeians still fighting and continuing their resistance in their lines, and attacked them in the rear."

It's interesting that the map on the wiki seems to show the legionaries hitting the victorious  Pompeian cavalry in the flank as they're still tied up with some of the Caesarian cavalry

images.png


Caesar's comments could support this, or it could be that the Pompeian cavalry had lost their original formation and were perhaps otherwise engaged in surrounding the infantry lines after having driven the Caesarian cavalry off.

Looking at the Latin it seems clear that the 4th line was deployed behind Caesar's cavalry and opposite Pompey's.

Simul his rebus animadversis, quas demonstravimus, timens, ne a multitudine equitum dextrum cornu circumveniretur, celeriter ex tertia acie singulas cohortes detraxit atque ex his quartam instituit equitatuique opposuit et, quid fieri vellet, ostendit monuitque eius diei victoriam in earum cohortium virtute constare.

The cavalry it is "opposed to" - opposuit - is clearly Pompey's, not Caesar's.

After Pompey's cavalry starts driving Caesar's back and the rear ranks of Pompey's horse begin to outflank Caesar's legions the fourth line charges straight ahead - i.e. straight through their own cavalry - and engages Pompey's cavalry frontally. This would be easy enough for them to do if the cavalry were deployed in a standard width of 2 yards per file (to enable the horses to wheel around individually), leaving enough space between files for the infantry to interpenetrate them. Formations passing through each other like this was standard practice. Mid Republican cavalry at one time routinely won battles by charging enemy foot straight through their own infantry and the late Republic would not have forgotten the technique - just applied it in reverse in this case.

Quod ubi Caesar animadvertit, quartae aciei, quam instituerat sex cohortium, dedit signum. Illi celeriter procucurrerunt infestisque signis tanta vi in Pompei equites impetum fecerunt, ut eorum nemo consisteret, omnesque conversi non solum loco excederent, sed protinus incitati fuga montes altissimos peterent

"Procucurrerunt" from procurrere means to run forwards, run out ahead, advance (https://www.latindictionary.io/word/procucurrerunt).

Which gives this setup at the beginning of the battle. The widths and depths are approximate. The 4th line would be completely hidden by the cavalry in front of them.

(https://i.ibb.co/wF0F0F49/pharsalus-cavalry.png) (https://ibb.co/FLxLxLzS)

Thanks for that Justin
would it be possible for one of our wise and technical people to filter off the bottom half of this thread and put it in a thread which said "Infantry charging cavalry" or something similar?

Split as requested

Quote from: dwkay57 on Aug 13, 2026, 04:27 PMBut were the Parthians in an "uncontrolled advance" or a "wild charge" or did they get too close and have to shoot at "really close range" to avoid any penalties for shooting uphill and failed their movement test for trying to evade on difficult terrain? ;)

I suspect the terrain and overconfidence got them too close, every horse archer trying to get in on the act, and the Romans saw their chance. A surprise Roman response led to panic, confusion and loss of formation as the horse archers bumped into each other and could not evade or  retreat. The terrain may have been more constrictive than we realise, otherwise why not go around the flanks?

Casualties led to more panic with horsemen streaming away. The legionaries could now close on the cataphracts and the slingers had a free hand to ply their trade.

You have to give the Roman general,  Publius Ventidius, cudos for a good plan that worked. His use of the terrain, no flanks or open space and the Parthian's overconfidence really turned the tables, and he showed he had learned from past Roman mistakes. He banked on the Parthians doing exactly as they did, so they played their part too!

Yes that seems to sum it up
Infantry can charge cavalry when the cavalry don't see them coming in time to react, or the cavalry are too busy to react.
It intrigued me that the examples we have are Roman, but then they did write a lot. What examples have we of earlier or later?

There are a few medieval ones I know of, which fit the ideas.

At the Battle of Laupen, a portion of Freiburg cavalry was charged in the rear while engaged to the front.  Poor situational awareness meant they seem to have missed that the rest of their army had run away, leaving the rallied Bernese to come to the rescue of their comrades. It did not end well for the cavalry.

At the Battle of Loudon Hill, Bruce ordered a charge to prevent the English cavalry rallying.  The English made the mistake of trying to rally too close, expecting the Scots to remain in their defensive position.

At the Battle of Hausbergen, between the city and bishop of Strasburg, the Strasburg militia advanced to support the civic cavalry who were hard pressed by the bishop's knights. These were too entangled to disengage so were mobbed in a standing fight.  Here the Strasburgers were ordered to target the horses and subsequently took a lot of the bishop's knights prisoner for ransom.

Overall, these suggest that cavalry deprived of the ability to manoeuvre were vulnerable to infantry attack.

Yes these medieval examples do seem to fit the same general criteria. Cavalry disordered, already engaged, in difficult terrain, or just already in trouble, seem to be suitable targets.

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 16, 2026, 02:08 PMYes these medieval examples do seem to fit the same general criteria. Cavalry disordered, already engaged, in difficult terrain, or just already in trouble, seem to be suitable targets.

So how to replicate those circumstances in a wargame? (please don't say dice!)

Some circumstances with be 'self evident' (although the rules might have used dice to create the circumstance, other rules might not.)

So a cavalry unit could be in combat with another unit and is unable to do anything about it
A cavalry unit could just have defeated one opponent, might even have pursued, and is now rallying and is in no position just to ride the infantry down.
The cavalry are in difficult terrain and the infantry pounce.
Another circumstance is probably where skirmishing light horse get too close to infantry, try to evade but are slowed or trapped by terrain or impenetrable obstacles.

These might be tricky to achieve but easy enough to fit into the rules.
A more difficult one is where you have a line of Sassanid armoured cavalry facing a line of legionaries. Both lines can deluge each other with missiles. Can the infantry line just grind forward, perhaps more slowly than usual, because the front ranks are keen to maintain the wall of shields and also to be ready to brace if the cavalry do charge. At some point the infantry will 'bump' into the cavalry and thus melee will ensure, but any charge might literally be the last handful of yards.

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 16, 2026, 02:51 PM

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 16, 2026, 02:08 PMYes these medieval examples do seem to fit the same general criteria. Cavalry disordered, already engaged, in difficult terrain, or just already in trouble, seem to be suitable targets.

So how to replicate those circumstances in a wargame? (please don't say dice!)

Six sided rolling devices with numbers on them

Quote from: Imperial Dave on Aug 16, 2026, 09:54 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 16, 2026, 02:51 PM

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 16, 2026, 02:08 PMYes these medieval examples do seem to fit the same general criteria. Cavalry disordered, already engaged, in difficult terrain, or just already in trouble, seem to be suitable targets.

So how to replicate those circumstances in a wargame? (please don't say dice!)

Six sided rolling devices with numbers on them

Groan!  ::)

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 16, 2026, 02:51 PM

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 16, 2026, 02:08 PMYes these medieval examples do seem to fit the same general criteria. Cavalry disordered, already engaged, in difficult terrain, or just already in trouble, seem to be suitable targets.

So how to replicate those circumstances in a wargame? (please don't say dice!)

It would depend on the rule mechanisms you use. There would be lots of mechanusms in play but surprise and supporting fire seem to be the most straight forward.

Mounted bow range less effective range shooting uphill. Morale effect (damage, breaking) of being surprised when charged, more so when your escape route is compromised (charged by foot in non-flat terrain?). Contacted when evading automatically causing them to break, flee or be scattered (not simply interpenetrate to rear, rally and return at full strength). Additional impact of being shot at when surprised. Overhead fire by slingers. Damage and shock on horses as the sling pellets hit with velocity. Double surprise and panic when your own side unexpectedly breaks through your ranks.

I've seen a few mechanisms that replicate some of these but these rely on some dice throwing.

In Commands and Colours, those charging "evaders" get to roll all their combat dice and score a hit on a 1-in-6 chance. It takes 3 hits to wipe out a fresh mounted unit. Evading back can block the path of your support troops. If insufficient room to evade, they can't and get a full melee smacking. "Evading" troop types trapped at the back of the table get wolloped. The infantry always strike first, so the mounted could be wiped out before being able to fight back (the element of surprise!).

In the Renaissance rule set Scourge of Princes, cavalry beaten by charging foot will be automatically damaged and will scatter off-table, returning damaged next to their camp next turn. If insufficient room, they delay or don't return. Shooting can proceed movement, so the cavalry may be a free target prior to the charge, so can be shot-up before the infantry charge goes in. The damage is accumulative, so the cavalry are at-risk sitting ducks if they choose to stand in front of formed and missile-armed or supported infantry.

Dicelessly, it depends on your mechanisms. In this battle, the horse archers seem to have been surprised AND trapped. Any sling fire was an added bonus, especially against the cataphracts. Would your game set-up allow for this? The horse archers could do little until they move to very-short range. In this circumstance, the slingers could sit in front or behind uphill and outrange the horse archers. Time is pressing for Pacorus, he must fight to get past, get supplies and maintain his princely prestige. His father does not reward failure and the allies are watching. The Parthian way of war is horse archers first, cataphracts deliver the coup de grace on damaged and demoralised troops. He could have charged first, but cataphracts uphill against good formed foot with missile support can't end well, for Pacorus, his elite troops, his army, his campaign, and his prestige.