TACTICA 2 mAURYAN iNDIANS V sELEUKIDS

[simonw]

Last night's TACTICA 2 game was the third and final match between Mauryan Indians and Seleukids. The Seleukids won the first 2 so there had been changes on the Indian side! Mistakes had been made. Others had been blamed!
Mauryan Indians v Seleukids; ca. 300BCE TACTICA 2
The armies were as follows:
SELEUCIDS 3rd Century BC
Troop Type Unit Size FV (Sk. FV) Quality Weapons Points Cost Total Pts.
Companions HC(I) 18 5-6 Elite Lance 9 162 Cataphractoi HC(I) 16 5-6 Veteran Lance 8 256
Cataphractoi HC(I) 16 5-6 Veteran Lance 8 256
Skythian LH 8 3-6 (5-6) Veteran Bow 5 40
Skythian LH 8 3-6 (5-6) Veteran Bow 5 40
Tarantines 8 4-6 (5-6) Veteran Javelins 5 40
PH Argyaspides 48 5-6 Elite Pike 8 384
PH Line (Katoikoi) 48 5-6 Veteran Pike 7 336
PH Line (Katoikoi) 48 5-6 Veteran Pike 7 336
PH Line (Katoikoi) 48 5-6 Veteran Pike 7 336
PH Line (Katoikoi) 48 5-6 Veteran Pike 7 336
PH Line (Katoikoi) 48 5-6 Veteran Pike 7 336
LI Peltasts 27 3-6 (5-6) Veteran Javelins 4 108
LI Peltasts 27 3-6 (5-6) Veteran Javelins 4 108
LI Peltasts 27 3-6 (5-6) Veteran Javelins 4 108
Skirmish Bow 18 (4-6) Veteran Bow 3 54
Skirmish Bow 18 (4-6) Veteran Bow 3 54
443 Massed Figs TOTAL Points 3022
Army Breakpoint 221 Figs
MAURYAN INDIANS 3rd Century BC
Troop Type Unit Size FV (Sk. FV) Quality Weapons Points Cost Total Pts.
Heavy Chariots 2 4-6 Veteran Jav/Bow 33 66
Heavy Chariots 2 4-6 Veteran Jav/Bow 33 66
Heavy Chariots 2 4-6 Veteran Jav/Bow 33 66
Heavy Chariots 2 4-6 Veteran Jav/Bow 33 66
Heavy Chariots 2 4-6 Veteran Jav/Bow 33 66
Heavy Cavalry 18 4-6 Militia Grade Spear 5 90
Heavy Cavalry 18 4-6 Militia Grade Spear 5 90
Heavy Cavalry 18 4-6 Militia Grade Spear 5 90
Elephants(I)* 16 5-6 Veteran Itself 42 672
* Elephants Deployed in 2 Screen of 6 and 2 massed Units of 2
Heavy Foot Bow 48 4-6 Veteran Bow/Swd 7 336
Heavy Foot Bow 48 4-6 Veteran Bow/Swd 7 336
Heavy Foot Bow 48 4-6 Veteran Bow/Swd 7 336
Heavy Foot Bow 48 4-6 Veteran Bow/Swd 7 336
Heavy Foot Bow 48 4-6 Veteran Bow/Swd 7 336
Skirmish Javelinmen 18 (5-6) Veteran Javelins 2 36
Skirmish Javelinmen 18 (5-6) Veteran Javelins 2 36
Skirmish Archerss 18 (4-6) Veteran Bow 3 54
438 Massed Figs TOTAL Points 3070
Army Breakpoint 219 Figs
The Indians Deployed with their Infantry centre in 5 units of 48 Foot in 4 ranks anchored on each end by Massed Units of 2 Elephants. Most of the Elephants were arrayed in 2 Screens of 6 on each Flank and the outer areas of the Central Sector.
The Indian plan was to defend in the Flank sectors using the Elephants Screens supported byu the Chariot and Cavalry and to anchor the Infantry battleline with a the couple of 2 Model massed Elephant Units. A major element of the plan though was to leave the gap between the 2 6 Elephant Screen in the centre of the field through which the Indian Foot could concentrate their bowfire onto the advancing Seleukid Phalanx. This worked out very well with the 5 Foot Archer units (60 Missile Dice) inflicting several Missile Halts on units within the Seleukid Phalanx with highly significant numbers of casualties. Indeed, one of the Seleukid Phalanx battalions was virtually down to 2 ranks depth by the time it reached the Indian Infantry line.
Both of the Indian Elephant Screens swivelled slightly to the right. On the left, this was to cover and engage at least the outer couple of Seleukid Phalanx battalions as they advanced and on the right, to also 'face off' the massed Seleukid Cavalry forces on the Seleukid left.
The Indian wings were stiffened a little by the addition of the extra Chariots (2 in number) but were still primarily defensive in face of the superior mounted troops and the numerous Peltasts in the Seleukid army.
The Indian plan was therefore to hold the flanks and to weaken and disrupt the cohesion of the Seleukid Phalanx using the Elephant Screens and Massed Bowfire before it could engage the Indian Foot which by then should have the advantage in Melee. This plan worked out pretty effectively.
The Seleukids Massed all their Heavy Cavalry on their left Flank (2 units of 16 Cataphracts and the Elite Companion Cavalry; 18 strong. These units were all FV5-6 with Impetus. On the Seleukid right flank, they Massed all of their 3 units of 27 Peltasts to defend the Low ridge in this area of the field and to fend off the Indian Elephants.
Thus, the Seleukid plan was really a left hook and a central 'punch' with the Phalanx. This plan didn't really work out well.
On their left, the massed attack by the Seleukid cavalry was largely thwarted by the opposing Indian Elephant Screen and the supporting Chariots and Indian cavalry. It could not breakthrough to flank the Indian Infantry in the centre.
In the centre, the advance of the Seleukid Phalanx was disrupted by the Indian Bowfire such that by the time it actually got into combat with the (untouched) Indian Foot, it was under severe pressure pretty much all along the line and in a a parlous state by the conclusion of the game. Indeed, the Seleukid CinC was wounded and captured by the Indian Foot in the process.
On the Seleukid right, the Peltasts fared a little better albeit they lost 54 out of their total of 81 figures as two of their 3 units were Broken BUT the main success that the Seleukids had was in this area of the field where they Broke the massed Units of 2 Indian Elephants on the left of the Indian line which Routed Past and Disordered the leftmost Indian Foot Unit as it engaged the Seleukid Phalanx in Melee. Despite both sides becoming Disordered, the Seleukids eventually managed to Break this Indian Foot at the very end of the battle which prompted their Commanders to claim a (technical) draw as this took the Indian Army past its Breakpoint.
The Seleukid Army however, was well past its Breakpoint by this stage (albeit in the same Game Turn) and two of the remaing 4 Phalanx battalions were 'Flanked'; and would definitely have also Broken in a following Game Turn.
So, in the end, the Indians were in the much more favourable position despite a couple of 'unfortunate' and potentially but not actually disastrous Routed Past Control Test failures on the left end of their line.
Maybe a 'technical draw' but definitely a moral Victory for the Indians; particularly as the Seleukid CinC was captured.
N.B. What the Tactica 2 Rules actually say:
"Tie-Breakers
If both sides reach their Breakpoint at the turn's end,the
loser is the one who has lost the greater percentage You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.of figures
from Broken Massed units applied against the total
number of Massed unit figures that produced the
Breakpoint. Playersmayinstead interpret this as a Draw" (i.e. the Seleukids BUT NOT the Indians)!
Photo and gameplay acknowledgements:
Seleukids: Hughleukos and Billtiochus
Mauryans: Gordonogupta and me (Sishoka).

[Keraunos]

Well played the Indian team 

Lovely pictures as always.  Thank you.

[simonw]

Thanks for your reply. It's nice to know that you enjoy the reports. Best wishes, Simon

[Jon Freitag]

I agree with Kim that your table is lovely as ever.  To me, your battles look very similar with long lines of troops deployed table edge to table edge.  While the spectacle impression is high and me not being an Ancients wargaming specialist, does this type of game ever get boring?

[Keraunos]

Jon, isn't that a bit like me asking if long bicycle rides ever get boring?  Each of us comes to wargaming with a different set of ideas.  Finding a group of friends with whom one can enjoy gaming, even if you play the same game every time, seems to me to be a happy outcome.  In the case of these huge Tactica 2 battles, they look similar but there seems to be subtlety in the dispositions and decisions that allow players to compensate for weaknesses in their own armies and cope with strengths on the enemy side to make sure that there is no foregone conclusion to pitching pikes against elephants or legions against a phalanx.

[Jon Freitag]

There you go!  I stand corrected and withdraw my question.  Yes, long bicycle rides can get boring unless dodging traffic and potholes.

[Martin Smith]

.....
> Yes, long bicycle rides can get boring unless dodging traffic and potholes.

New tourist board slogan:- "Come to Britain, for exciting cycle rides..."
We have both of those excitement-generators 😎🚲🚚🛻🚲🏎�🚓🚑🚎🚲

[Imperial Dave]

Having done long cycle rides I can attest to the boredom of trying to stuff as many calories as possible without being sick amongst all the other stuff like trying not to die on a descent at 50mph and avoiding being T-boned by cars etc 

[Chris]

At the risk of weighing in here, well . . . perhaps I should refrain.

Hmmmm . . .

Is it 'bad form' to ask certain kinds of questions or to have certain ideas or curiosity about the approaches used by others to engage in this multifaceted and wide-ranging 'religion' of wargaming?

True enough, Simon and his colleagues appear to have found that often searched for 'comfort zone.' But, having attained this, could this not result in a kind of complacency, an aversion to trying something new or different?

Point of order, Mr. Chairman, from what I can see and recall from his numerous and engaging reports, these battles seem to average about 2,500 points per side. (There will be a sub committee meeting or meetings on the pros and cons of army lists and points, etc.) It occurs to me that a large Tactica II game might see 5,000 points per side, or maybe even 7,500 points per side. Now that would be something to see and play, I think. Then again, perhaps not.

In sum, I think it is or was a fair question, though perhaps it could have been worded better. (Save everyone the trouble and will throw a rock at my own glass house . . . there, done and busted!)

I recall the subject of boredom or the concern about it being brought up in a another thread - I think it had to do with the play sequence or something, which would have a player-general sitting and waiting around while his opponent rolled dice and moved his troops, etc.

With the random threat and danger of being hit by a car or car door, and in JF's case of being charged by an irate moose (or bear), it is a wonder that cycling could be categorized as boring.

Cheers,
Chris

[Erpingham]

I think to answer Jon's question, you do have to separate it from Simon's gaming.  Simon's games are clearly not boring - he and his crew appear to have a great time and the games seem both competitive and convivial. But Jon's question was about a type of game with two forces filling a plain field. Now, it seems to me that a lot of real battles were just like this, so it is in no way inauthentic. But others may relish the challenges of other scenario elements. If you observe Jon's wargaming, it's based around refighting past battles (many outside our era) and his battles tend to have forces arriving at different times, or from different directions or overcoming obstacles like making a river crossing. A very different set up style. As has been said, we do have a variety of rules and styles  represented in the society and long may it continue.

[simonw]

Gents,

Many thanks for your interest and contributions. Apologies for the slight delay but i have been fighting Octopus (energy) all morning.

In response to Jon's query, the answer is a simple 'no'; the battles don't get boring. There are reasons for this as follows:

1. The Tactica 2 rules are a 'Big battle' set of rules so given that ancient battlelines were usually kilometres long (big battles), having long lines of troops i not unreasonable.
2. As others have pointed out, there is a lot of subtlety in the Deployments given the relative strengths and weaknesses of the different troop types. So monitoring how the course of the battle works out and how your battleplan goes wrong (which it invariably doe to a greater or lesser extent), is quite 'interesting' in a Chinese sense.
3. We tend to do 3 battles between the same opponents before switching to a different pair Hence we have just completed Indians v Seleukids so we are mooting what to do next; Alexandrian Macedonians v later Achaemenid Persians or to further back to Biblicals. Hence there is variety.
4. On other day of the week, players play other periods so they/we are not necessarily playing Tactica 2 all the time.
5. We sometimes play skirmish games as well.
6. The game is multiplayer so it is a 'fun', social occasion and not 'just' a wargame.
7. Putting your lovingly collected and painted 'toys' onto the table en masse never seems to bore. The spectacle of the game is integral to the enjoyment; not just the gameplay and/or result
8. The Tactica 2 rules actually allow for (potentially) significant mobility and manoeuvre every Turn and because it is a game of (variably sized, variably organised, units of differing morale and fighting quality), this adds a degree of 'involvement' in how (favoured or despised) units actually perform.
9. It may be a delusion but the games do seem to have a good 'historical' feel (not the least being limited to 'historical' opponents) and this helps engender a degree of escapism to the time period (and personalities) involved
10 Being multiplayer, whenever mistakes are made (and they always are), then others can be blamed!

I hope this helps explain why I enjoy the games so much. They are most definitely not 'chess'.

Thanks for your involvement gents.

Simon

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[Imperial Dave]

huge amounts of figures Simon...always nice to see

[simonw]

Jon,

Also, I have spent many happy days engaged in long cycle rides; usually touring beautiful places such as the Outer Hebrides, Inner Hebrides, the Orkneys as well as Denmark and Germany. Sometimes it was 'tough' (blowing a gale and horizontal rain) but bit was never boring. I look back on those days fondly given that I can't even get on a bike these days because of my MS.

You never know what you have until you lose it! Cycling miles and miles is fun!

Keep at it.

Cheers

SiYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

[Jon Freitag]

Beautiful landscapes, Simon!  A shame those cycling days are behind you but you have wargaming to keep your mind occupied.  For long (and non-hazardous) stretches out on the bike, my thoughts often turn to wargaming, game design, and other hobby thoughts.  Wargaming is never far from mind and great problems are solved while out cycling! 

[Jon Freitag]

Is it 'bad form' to ask certain kinds of questions or to have certain ideas or curiosity about the approaches used by others to engage in this multifaceted and wide-ranging 'religion' of wargaming?

In sum, I think it is or was a fair question, though perhaps it could have been worded better. (Save everyone the trouble and will throw a rock at my own glass house . . . there, done and busted!)

Well, I did withdraw my question...but why not ask a question to satisfy my curiosity?  For me, the real lost opportunity is the question not asked.  Simon answered my question in great detail which I appreciate and completely understand his position.

Could I have phrased the question better?  Probably but sometimes, my brain and fingers are not always in sync.  I certainly meant no disrespect or judgment and certainly no criticism of Simon's style of game.  As Anthony clarifies, there are many satisfying ways in which to enjoy a game with friends.