Obsessed with the Tang Dynasty

[Duncan Head]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2026/sep/29/why-am-i-obsessed-with-chinas-ancient-golden-age-i-took-my-daughter-on-a-trip-to-find-out

They say men in Europe think about the Roman Empire all the time - is this the Eastern equivalent?

[Keraunos]

There are circles within the ultra-nationalist denizens of the internet in China who have been arguing vehemently that the Tang Dynasty never existed (because it was not founded by Chinese).  The Chinese Government have stepped in to denounce these theories!

[Justin Swanton]

Doesn't sound like he or his daughter had much fun. I did a 2 1/2 week visit to Rome end last year early this year and we saw everything. Apologies to all Chinese, but Rome knocks Xi'an flat for history, culture and architectural beauty.

[Erpingham]

who have been arguing vehemently that the Tang Dynasty never existed

What do they fill the time period with instead? 

[Justin Swanton]

Men think about the Roman Empire because it didn't actually come to an end in 476 AD. The Western half did, and the barbarian kings there still owed a nominal allegiance to the Eastern court - coins with the emperor's image were being minted in the Visigothic kingdom until well into the 6th century. The Eastern Empire remained the premier Christian power until the battle of Manzikert, so its cultural influence dominated western Europe, a bit like how American cultural influence has dominated the West (and rest of the world) since WW2. It was only from the 13th century onwards that Western art began to take a different path from Eastern iconography. Even after the Eastern Empire began to fade away, the Holy Roman Empire tried to emulate it, more or less, and kept the imperial ideal alive - one supreme Christian ruler who would keep Christian lands safe from infidels and heretics.

This is an AI search on the military might of Charlemagne's Frankish empire compared to the Eastern Roman Empire in 800AD: The Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire was militarily more powerful and sophisticated than the Empire of Charlemagne in 800 AD, possessing a professional standing army, advanced naval power, and centralized logistics, whereas Charlemagne's strength relied on seasonal feudal levies suited only for local hegemony in Western Europe.

And the Holy Roman Empire compared to the Eastern Roman Empire: The Eastern Roman Empire (also known as the Byzantine Empire) was significantly more powerful militarily in 1000 AD than the Holy Roman Empire. Around 1000 AD, the Eastern Roman Empire was at one of its historical peaks under the reign of Emperor Basil II (often called the "Bulgar-Slayer"). In contrast, the Holy Roman Empire under Emperor Otto III was a decentralized collection of regional duchies and territories.

We've been living under the shadow of imperial Rome until well into the Middle Ages.

[Erpingham]

I'm not sure the musing of Swedish influencers is a sound statistical basis to state European men think about the Roman Empire all the time.  Local young men seem more drawn to the Vandals.

[Justin Swanton]

I'm not sure the musing of Swedish influencers is a sound statistical basis to state European men think about the Roman Empire all the time.  Local young men seem more drawn to the Vandals.

I'd say they're drawn to the Space Marines.

[Duncan Head]

who have been arguing vehemently that the Tang Dynasty never existed

What do they fill the time period with instead? 

"The basis of Qiao Yu's claim is that the succeeding Song dynasty actually began far earlier than traditionally accepted, therefore canceling out the Tang. The Song dynasty was of ethnic Han origin."

[Nick Harbud]

A friend was visiting me when I was in the middle of painting up my 15mm T'ang army.  His Chinese wife noticed the figures and applauded my selection of an army from her homeland.  Despite being neither a wargamer nor an historian, she instantly recognised them as T'ang, which rather impressed me.

[Justin Swanton]

As a wargamer I'm interested in how a T'ang army would match up against, say, an imperial Roman army of the 2nd century or a Macedonian army under Alexander. Also against an Indian army of the era of Alexander (a really big Indian army, not Porus' relatively small force).

[Justin Swanton]

For fun I tried AI, comparing a T'ang army and a Byzantine army of the 10th century. I got this. Input anyone?

[Jim Webster]

who have been arguing vehemently that the Tang Dynasty never existed

What do they fill the time period with instead? 

"The basis of Qiao Yu's claim is that the succeeding Song dynasty actually began far earlier than traditionally accepted, therefore canceling out the Tang. The Song dynasty was of ethnic Han origin."

I must admit I was intrigued by the whole idea that the tang never existed when I first heard about it. More from what it might tell us about attitudes in Modern China than it would about the Tang/Song period 

[Nick Harbud]

Personally, I think the T'ang would grossly outnumber any of the opponents you might be thinking of.  I mean, the side with the big battalions generally wins.   

[Justin Swanton]

Personally, I think the T'ang would grossly outnumber any of the opponents you might be thinking of.  I mean, the side with the big battalions generally wins.   

Tell that to Alexander. 😏

[nikgaukroger]

For fun I tried AI, comparing a T'ang army and a Byzantine army of the 10th century. I got this. Input anyone?

The AI needs to up its "research" as the bow not the crossbow was the main missile weapon of the Tang infantry.