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General Category => Army Research => Topic started by: Jon Freitag on Aug 30, 2025, 03:10 AM

Title: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Jon Freitag on Aug 30, 2025, 03:10 AM
The Cestrosphendon Dart

What was it?
A deadly dart designed to be launched from a sling — not thrown by hand! The Cestrosphendon (or kestros) was a small, iron-tipped projectile with a wooden shaft and fletching for stability, kind of like a tiny javelin-meets-arrow.

Who used it?
It first appeared in Macedonian armies under Philip V (3rd century BCE) and was likely used during the Macedonian Wars against Rome.  Some sources say it was used to punch through armor at a distance where arrows or slingstones fell short.

Why it's cool:
While it didn't become a widespread weapon, it's an incredible example of ancient battlefield innovation.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEi4s4lyksQ7mKLEVgCrXFxjVDc4vERvnqYRl3GCsSYRreWkXzd1bSM7Z-JZn5ETyIczlsp75qfCHfM8cV3LvCR7l8AowSNg-wQiaqH8Afq51wyeYsa0TmfglTaun0B-62lKn1eg5z9vnv8LCddPQlj_Ji6bGBbbeZ9qOq-_pOtK4ZfC81Pz-zJg6gJJ6ggZ)

Ever heard of it before? Not me!
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Keraunos on Aug 30, 2025, 04:41 AM
New one on me, too.  Let me see if I can convert some Macedonian slingers to Cestrosphendonophori!?

There is a nice video on YouTube, I find

https://youtu.be/r5PWq3XqGGw?feature=shared
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Imperial Dave on Aug 30, 2025, 04:53 AM
Blimey...a new one on me too.
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Erpingham on Aug 30, 2025, 09:06 AM
We've actually had conversations on it before (https://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=1664.msg18648#msg18648) and Björn Floderus actually commissioned figures armed with it in 28mm.

Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Imperial Dave on Aug 30, 2025, 09:45 AM
Well spotted sir
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Nick Harbud on Aug 30, 2025, 10:14 AM
I don't know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me!

 :P
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Old Sarum on Aug 30, 2025, 12:47 PM
I wonder how long it will be before Tod Cutler features them on his YouTube Channel!
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Peter Feinler on Aug 31, 2025, 12:21 AM
Xyston make these in 15mm. See:

https://shop.ancient-modern.co.uk/anc20297---sphendonatai-with-kestrosphendone-3814-p.asp

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Keraunos on Aug 31, 2025, 12:46 AM
Do any rules cater for them?
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Imperial Dave on Aug 31, 2025, 04:52 AM
Oh no....I am not looking at my pile!  ;D
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Erpingham on Aug 31, 2025, 11:59 AM
Quote from: Keraunos on Aug 31, 2025, 12:46 AMDo any rules cater for them?

Were they common enough or spectacularly effective enough to need catering for?
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Nick Harbud on Aug 31, 2025, 12:53 PM
...but it is easy enough to incorporate them in one's favourite ruleset.  Simply add a new tactical factor/combat result - "Using Cestrosphendon Dart +10 & all opposition removed from table"

Even better than arming one's troops with chainsaw or maxim gun!

 ;D
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Erpingham on Aug 31, 2025, 01:50 PM
Exactly Nick. There is also the risk of the "flaming pig effect", where a military curiosity becomes a wargamer's must have because of a rule writer's completism.
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Jim Webster on Aug 31, 2025, 02:39 PM
Do people field many staff slingers any more? I suspect they were briefly fashionable before flaming pigs
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: RichT on Aug 31, 2025, 04:19 PM
There is nothing new under the sun. I wrote an article on 'belosphendone' which appeared in Slingshot 312 (May-June 2017) and which also discussed the 'cestrosphendone'. That in turn arose from a forum discussion presumably about that time, though the search feature for some reason doesn't want to find it for me.

The entirety of the evidence for 'cestrosphendone' is one passage of Livy:

Livy 42.65: "They suffered mainly from the cestrosphendone, a novel kind of weapon invented during the war [with Perseus]. It consisted of a pointed iron head two palms long, fastened to a shaft made of pinewood, nine inches long and as thick as a man's finger. Round the shaft three feathers were fastened as in the case of arrows, and the sling was held by two thongs, one shorter than the other. When the missile was poised in the centre of the sling, the slinger whirled it round with great force and it flew out like a leaden bullet."

Though the passage of Polybius that Livy was paraphrasing is itself known from the Souda:

Polybius 27.11 "The kestros was a novel invention, made during the war with Perseus. This weapon consisted of an iron bolt two palms long, half of which was spike, and half a tube for the reception of the wooden shaft which was fixed into the tube, and measured a span in length and a finger-breadth in diameter. At the middle point of the shaft three wooden "plumes" were morticed in. The sling had thongs of unequal length, and on the leather between them the missile was loosely set. When the sling was being swung round, with the two thongs taut, the missile kept its place; but when the slinger let go one of the thongs, it flew from the leather like a leaden bullet, and was projected from the sling with such force as to inflict a very grievous wound upon any one whom it hit."

QuoteSome sources say it was used to punch through armor at a distance where arrows or slingstones fell short.

Which sources are these? To my knowledge the passages above are the only ones that exist. (Assuming 'sources' = 'ancient texts'.)

QuoteWere they common enough or spectacularly effective enough to need catering for?

No, absolutely not! They should be consigned, along with staff slings and 'belly bows', to the back of the drawer labelled "wargamers' history (do not open)". They existed, yes. They aren't worth making special rules for, no.

 
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Erpingham on Aug 31, 2025, 04:38 PM
Quote from: RichT on Aug 31, 2025, 04:19 PMThat in turn arose from a forum discussion presumably about that time, though the search feature for some reason doesn't want to find it for me.

You participated in a discussion about belosphendone in 2016, in which you mention the cestrophendone

https://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=2396.msg27431#msg27431

Much of this seems to be debate with Patrick about how fiery the former weapon was.
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: RichT on Aug 31, 2025, 04:47 PM
Ah there it is, thanks Anthony.

Talking of the "flaming pig effect", I was amused to read Richard Nelson's editorial in Slingshot 60 (or 59 depending which numbering is used), July 1975:

"I recently mischievously reminded a member of the WRG that there were several well-attested references to the use of pigs to disorganise elephants. In one case (a sure fire stratagem!) the pigs were coated with blazing pitch. Suppose that this amendment were introduced, what would be the result? Anyone whose army includes elephants would become used to seeing opponents turn up with an armoured stye plus supporting troops including swineherds armed with Kontos and rhomphaia. Fierce arguments would rage over the realism of classifying pigs as 'C' class since they are domestic animals. The figure manufacturers would produce in response ot popular demand a 25mm flaming sow. And so on...

A good set of Wargame Rules is one which reproduces as simply and concisely as possible the historical characteristics of a period of Warfare. In doing so it cannot reproduce in detail every recorded facet of ancient warfare. To do so means running the risk of having such facets taken out of context to the distortion of that historical reality which it is sought to reproduce."

Wise words, sadly ignored...

Incidentally, this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvbcElk0vT4

seems a bit simpler and more plausible than the one linked above and is based on a lot of research and practice.
Title: Re: Ancient Tech You’ve Never Heard Of
Post by: Imperial Dave on Aug 31, 2025, 06:33 PM
Be still my beating heart  :)