https://www.sciencealert.com/archaeologists-found-2000-year-old-lesson-on-sea-level-changes-destroying-societies
Fascinating stuff
Interesting. The article blames this sea level fall and subsequent societal disruption on climate change that occurred approximately 2,500 years ago. Presumably nothing to do with burning fossil fuels?
On a similar line, has anyone found a good explanation for the oak capricorn beetles (https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2021/january/perfectly-preserved-ancient-beetles-uncovered.html)?
And before anyone starts foaming at the mouth...
- Yes, today the world is getting warmer.
- Burning all those fossil fuels probably has something to do with it.
Quote from: Nick Harbud on Dec 25, 2023, 03:10 PMInteresting. The article blames this sea level fall and subsequent societal disruption on climate change that occurred approximately 2,500 years ago. Presumably nothing to do with burning fossil fuels?
I guess the standarded explanations would be Milanković cycles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles) and/or deforestation. But the article didn't inspire enough confidence for me to try and dig into the question.
We manage to have ice ages, indeed we're technically overdue one. So I assume that sea level rise and fall can be impacted by these as well.
Quote from: Nick Harbud on Dec 25, 2023, 03:10 PMInteresting. The article blames this sea level fall and subsequent societal disruption on climate change that occurred approximately 2,500 years ago. Presumably nothing to do with burning fossil fuels?
On a similar line, has anyone found a good explanation for the oak capricorn beetles (https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2021/january/perfectly-preserved-ancient-beetles-uncovered.html)?
And before anyone starts foaming at the mouth...
- Yes, today the world is getting warmer.
- Burning all those fossil fuels probably has something to do with it.
I may be persuaded to foam at the mouth later :)
Sometimes the sea isn't going up and down but the land is!
My gripe with the article is nothing to do with climate change - there is no doubt either that climate has changed in the past for a variety of reasons or that it is changing now due to human beings unlocking all the carbon that plants carefully sequestered during the carboniferous era, happily helping to create conditions in which humans would eventually be able to develop. My gripe is the assumption that the societies affected by changes to sea level and vegetation in Brazil were destroyed. Would they not have adapted? This was not a sudden change. Societies would have had time to respond to the changing conditions. I began my life as an archaeologist for the Hertford Museum, excavating a late Roman farming settlement on a hill outside Hertford. The Roman were ploughing a huge amount of effort into combating the effects of climate change as the weather became colder and wetter in this period. They built corn driers to rescue harvests, cutting down vast acreages of woodland to fuel them. They were trying to preserve the status quo rather than adapt to new conditions. They failed. The higher levels of the site contained Saxon grubenhauses, much more 'primitive' seeming structures, but perfectly adapted for the difficult conditions people then faced.
As a species we are highly adaptable agreed. The outcome of climate change for ancient communities would normally be adapt or move.
Quote from: Keraunos on Dec 26, 2023, 01:31 AMMy gripe with the article is nothing to do with climate change - there is no doubt either that climate has changed in the past for a variety of reasons or that it is changing now due to human beings unlocking all the carbon that plants carefully sequestered during the carboniferous era, happily helping to create conditions in which humans would eventually be able to develop. My gripe is the assumption that the societies affected by changes to sea level and vegetation in Brazil were destroyed. Would they not have adapted? This was not a sudden change. Societies would have had time to respond to the changing conditions. I began my life as an archaeologist for the Hertford Museum, excavating a late Roman farming settlement on a hill outside Hertford. The Roman were ploughing a huge amount of effort into combating the effects of climate change as the weather became colder and wetter in this period. They built corn driers to rescue harvests, cutting down vast acreages of woodland to fuel them. They were trying to preserve the status quo rather than adapt to new conditions. They failed. The higher levels of the site contained Saxon grubenhauses, much more 'primitive' seeming structures, but perfectly adapted for the difficult conditions people then faced.
Just to agree entirely with you. In north Cumbria there are farms from the Roman period which were growing grain at a higher altitude than we would bother now. The reasons, the climate was better and there was a large grain eating market along Hadrian's wall right on their doorstep (OK two days north by ox wagon)
Quote from: Ian61 on Dec 25, 2023, 08:52 PMSometimes the sea isn't going up and down but the land is!
Good point! Geologists can tell you all about the Dunkirk II marine transgression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_transgression). Starting around 230 AD, the land shifted, causing the sea level to rise by around 4 metres in the lower reaches of the Maas and Rhine. Over the next 50 years, this caused the almost complete depopulation of the Roman Netherlands provinces.
Which feeds nicely into the dark age migration period...
Quote from: Jim Webster on Dec 26, 2023, 07:41 AMJust to agree entirely with you. In north Cumbria there are farms from the Roman period which were growing grain at a higher altitude than we would bother now. The reasons, the climate was better and there was a large grain eating market along Hadrian's wall right on their doorstep (OK two days north by ox wagon)
And, as we all know, during the Middle Ages, monks at various Yorkshire abbeys produced wine worthy of mention in the contemporary records. As our climate warms, I look forward to sampling the products of Château Webster.
;D
Quote from: Nick Harbud on Dec 26, 2023, 11:42 AMAnd, as we all know, during the Middle Ages, monks at various Yorkshire abbeys produced wine worthy of mention in the contemporary records.
There are currently several vineyards in Yorkshire. I toured one in Nun Monkton, north of York, in the spring.
Interestingly I have just read a book 'The Lost Islands of Somerset, by Richard Brunning (2013, ISBN 978-0-9957251-1-9). Much of the Somerset levels were reclaimed by the Romans/Romano British in the centuries after the conquest reaching their largest extent somewhere around 250/280 CE only for all to be lost in the next hundred years or so until reclaimed again in the middle ages peaking only around the beginning of the 19th century. Despite more recent work to prevent flooding I suspect we will lose a lot again over the next century.
Very interesting Ian thanks. It doesn't surprise me
Quote from: Ian61 on Dec 26, 2023, 12:03 PMInterestingly I have just read a book 'The Lost Islands of Somerset, by Richard Brunning (2013, ISBN 978-0-9957251-1-9). Much of the Somerset levels were reclaimed by the Romans/Romano British in the centuries after the conquest reaching their largest extent somewhere around 250/280 CE only for all to be lost in the next hundred years or so until reclaimed again in the middle ages peaking only around the beginning of the 19th century. Despite more recent work to prevent flooding I suspect we will lose a lot again over the next century.
When the person in charge of Flood Prevention wanted to dynamite the pumps and let the whole lot revert to bog it's hardly surprising. Currently with a change in management and local people watching very closely over their shoulders it looks as if they're taking the job a lot more seriously.
It might still flood in the future, but people with no connection to agriculture have discovered that drainage is vital. After all, a lot of these places aren't on mains drainage and having the water level above the level of your septic tank is not a recipe for happiness ;)
I know people reckon that the area going under water again is inevitable and you cannot stop these things forever. But I wonder if anybody has convinced the Dutch 8)
Or the Venetians
Well, the Second Dunkirk Marine Transgression was about eighteen hundred years ago and seriously affected the Rhine estuary, driving back Germanic settlement. I believe the area is suspected to have remained largely desolate until Carolingian times. That little bit of climate change was obviously brought on by excessive carbon emission from burning Wicker Men...
I hadnt thought of that ;D
Was the third Dunkirk marine transgression facilitated by a Halt order?
Quote from: Mark G on Dec 28, 2023, 03:39 PMWas the third Dunkirk marine transgression facilitated by a Halt order?
Well, I have always said that they do sound like the courts martial following an overly exuberant run ashore by Booties...
Quote from: Erpingham on Dec 26, 2023, 11:58 AMThere are currently several vineyards in Yorkshire. I toured one in Nun Monkton, north of York, in the spring.
There was an article in this week's Economist saying that Essex now gets more hours warm enough to ripen grapes in an average summer than Burgundy averaged in the 1980s.
Quote from: Cantabrigian on Dec 28, 2023, 06:26 PMQuote from: Erpingham on Dec 26, 2023, 11:58 AMThere are currently several vineyards in Yorkshire. I toured one in Nun Monkton, north of York, in the spring.
There was an article in this week's Economist saying that Essex now gets more hours warm enough to ripen grapes in an average summer than Burgundy averaged in the 1980s.
As part of our vineyard tour, the proprietor asked the assembled punters how many vineyards they thought there were in England. The answer (which no-one got) was around 750. Most, however, are very small. His problem was not really ripening but late, hard frosts, which can cripple an entire vintage overnight.
Very interesting. Seed potatoes is another if somewhat less glamorous example
Quote from: Imperial Dave on Dec 28, 2023, 07:01 PMSeed potatoes is another if somewhat less glamorous example
Less of an issue in Roman times, perhaps? :)
Quote from: Erpingham on Dec 28, 2023, 07:09 PMQuote from: Imperial Dave on Dec 28, 2023, 07:01 PMSeed potatoes is another if somewhat less glamorous example
Less of an issue in Roman times, perhaps? :)
Less of an issue in Europe for sure ;)
True....but it is revealing about climate change
Whilst Raymond Selkirk's The Piercebridge Formula is primarily focused on his theory that the Romans canalised some of the seemingly minor waterways near Hadrian's Wall for military supply, with the remains of locks misidentified by archaeologists as bridge piers and fish traps, he does remark that the terracing at Houseteads is very reminiscent of the Yellow River paddy fields he saw during his Merchant Navy service in the Far East in the late 1940s, and wonders whether rice might have been a cultivar.
Also, I seem to recall that in the Boudiccan destruction layer in London, there was evidence of figs grown in the Cologne area, suggesting a somewhat warmer climate than today.
indeed. Warmer and drier
Quote from: DBS on Dec 29, 2023, 12:20 PMAlso, I seem to recall that in the Boudiccan destruction layer in London, there was evidence of figs grown in the Cologne area, suggesting a somewhat warmer climate than today.
There has been a small fig tree next to our apiary gate for decades. Usually there are one or two small and lonely looking figs to be seen late in the year, about a dozen last year and 20+ this so my wife has been looking up what to do with them (several have also involved honey which seems fitting given where the fig tree is sited). The Somerset fig crop is looking promising. 8) but possibly a little worrying as well. ???
Fig biscuits
:)
Figs go well with walnuts and blue cheese.
Goats cheese for ne
Quote from: Imperial Dave on Dec 30, 2023, 11:00 AMGoats cheese for ne
Agreed, though my other half doesn't like goats cheese, so rather rules it out. Figs, goats cheese and nuts is a pretty plausible Roman snack. Perhaps with honey - they liked cheese and honey.
Sorry Anthony, siding with Dave here, neither wife or I like blue cheeses much but fine with most others and I do like a goats cheese. :)
We actually have a drying tower device we use to dry apple slices and other fruit (daughter also uses it to dry lambs heart treats for the dog) we intend to try this next year as a way to stop the figs going mouldy on keeping any length of time as we have discovered they do very easily. An advantage that the Romans had is they would have used the Mediterranean sun for this. Not sure I would try that here.
We have an air fryer that has that function. Might have to try it out
Love a fig mind. Once I start it's hard to stop
Quote from: Ian61 on Dec 30, 2023, 11:15 AMWe actually have a drying tower device we use to dry apple slices and other fruit (daughter also uses it to dry lambs heart treats for the dog)
Turning lambs into dog treats seems pretty heartless to me. :(
Boom boom!
Coming back to this thread it took me a while to figure out how it moved from coastal inundation to blue cheese, goats cheese and lambs hearts! Gardeners across the ages have tried hard to get figs to grow well in England. Sometimes climatic variation has helped, as in the early Roman period and the 13th Century. Corners of south facing walls have been a common resort at other times, but crops have always been uncertain. If the sun shines favourably, the squirrels usually get to the fruit first in my mother's experience.
Fig trees are surprisingly tough. We have one which does fine 1000ft up in Yorkshire, but it doesn't fruit.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on Dec 30, 2023, 11:21 AMLove a fig mind. Once I start it's hard to stop
I'm told prunes can have a similar effect.
Useful as a substitute for cough medicine I find....