SoA Forum

History => Ancient and Medieval History => Topic started by: Imperial Dave on Nov 02, 2021, 06:30 PM

Title: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Imperial Dave on Nov 02, 2021, 06:30 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-59121017

interesting...
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Duncan Head on Nov 02, 2021, 06:53 PM
Very nice indeed.
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: aligern on Nov 03, 2021, 10:07 AM
Indeed, though the problem with promontory forts would be that they are relatively easy to besiege , there being only one way out. ( if the cliff is enough to deter an opponent landing its probably not that easy fir tge defenders to cross.
Roy
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Erpingham on Nov 03, 2021, 10:39 AM
Though a well-prepared, well stocked promentary fort might be better equipped to endure than army of the period with somewhat ad hoc logistics.  Just sit and wait till they get hungry, disease breaks out or they fall out and go home.  Or your relief force from elsewhere in the kingdom appears in the bay, turning the besiegers' flank.
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: aligern on Nov 03, 2021, 10:54 AM
Having only one exit considerably reduces the stress on the besieger.  As to sitting there for a long time, it didn't daunt the Vikings at Alt Cluidh.
Roy
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: RichT on Nov 03, 2021, 11:03 AM
I have always assumed that the purpose of these sorts of forts is to prevent raids and assaults rather than to withstand a formal siege - for this, sea and cliffs are ideal. As a place to live, it must have been pretty miserable.

Though I also wonder to what extent the location of a fort (or other fortified structure) is chosen because it looks defensible, rather than because (on careful analysis of the pros and cons) it is defensible. The visuals of fortified positions are I think somewhat underrated.

(Edit - as the article says, it 'was built to be "dramatic and imposing".)
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Erpingham on Nov 03, 2021, 11:22 AM
Quote from: aligern on Nov 03, 2021, 10:54 AM
Having only one exit considerably reduces the stress on the besieger.  As to sitting there for a long time, it didn't daunt the Vikings at Alt Cluidh.
Roy

While not familiar with the siege of Alt Cluidh, I'm not sure that the Viking approach was always so patient, nor that Early Medieval raiding forces were usually able (or even inclined) to sit down in one place and starve the inhabitants out.  As Richard said, the impressive, impenetrable appearance may discourage any attempt (I know, lets look for a softer target like that monastery down the coast) unless treachery or surprise was in play.
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Imperial Dave on Nov 03, 2021, 12:23 PM
the gate is the weakest point on a fort
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Nick Harbud on Nov 03, 2021, 01:24 PM
Except, perhaps, for Caernarfon Castle with no less than 6 portcullisses?
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Imperial Dave on Nov 03, 2021, 01:33 PM
flashy....
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Erpingham on Nov 03, 2021, 01:44 PM
The gate of the reconstruction is rather vague but looks quite weak - no towers or walkways, just what a presumably wooden gates in wide spaces.  I can't see anything that would allow flanking shooting or overhead missiles, except by people balanced on the exposed wall ends.  This may be the archaeologists being unclear what was happening in the area and placing it in a hazy distant view, of course :)
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Imperial Dave on Nov 03, 2021, 02:29 PM
needs a good military historian to add chrome.....
Title: Re: Is this how a Pictish fort looked 1,000 years ago?
Post by: Anton on Nov 03, 2021, 03:40 PM
That one's worth seeing, thanks Dave.   

On supply for the defenders, no doubt resources were concentrated there and supply by sea possible.  There is also the effect of tides for attackers to mull. The amount of labour required to build such fortifications  should also be considered.