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https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/way-colchester-lost-status-englands-5780321

very low level article but at least they got Boudicca right

It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

 ::)
;D

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 17, 2021, 11:25 AM
It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

Only if you've not read it.

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 11:31 AM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 17, 2021, 11:25 AM
It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

Only if you've not read it.

doesnt matter....Justin think's everything has a connotation with the above  ;) ;D

Quote from: Holly on Aug 17, 2021, 11:33 AM

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 11:31 AM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 17, 2021, 11:25 AM
It does highlight Colchester - Camulodunum - as the natural base - Camelot - for a roving cavalry commander trying to secure post-Roman Britain against out of control pagan mercenaries...

Only if you've not read it.

doesnt matter....Justin think's everything has a connotation with the above  ;) ;D

Well I do think Camulodunum is the best site for Arthur's base: its fortifications have a large area not filled with buildings but ideal as a secure place for several hundred horses, and it was perfectly situated between the Jute/Saxon/Angle enclaves in Norfolk and Kent. If you want to contain the barbarian threat, that's the place from which to do it.

I'm sooooo tempted to write a novel about it. Arthur and Syagrius, the last Roman commanders in the crumbling West. Grey skies, a wet breeze, and gazing at the grey seas on horseback from the cliffs. It's been done to death...maybe not...

substitute Ambrosius Aurelianus and it'll work  :) 

Quote from: Holly on Aug 17, 2021, 11:49 AM
substitute Ambrosius Aurelianus and it'll work  :)

No, include him!

QuoteWell I do think Camoludunum is the best site for Arthur's base: its fortifications have a large area not filled with buildings but ideal as a secure place for several hundred horses, and it was perfectly situated between the Jute/Saxon/Angle enclaves in Norfolk and Kent. If you want to contain the barbarian threat, that's the place from which to do it.

It's an argument you can make if you wish but Camelot (in various spellings) is only mentioned in the 12th century and remains a subsiduary location in Arthurian literature for some time, so there is no real tradition to draw on.

Can we confidently state that Camulodunum was still in Romano-British hands at the most likely dates for Arthur, or would it already have been Anglo-Saxon? Nennius, for what he's worth, clearly sets Vortigern's ceding of the East Sex before Arthur. Unless you think Arthur retook it, of course.

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 12:00 PM

QuoteWell I do think Camoludunum is the best site for Arthur's base: its fortifications have a large area not filled with buildings but ideal as a secure place for several hundred horses, and it was perfectly situated between the Jute/Saxon/Angle enclaves in Norfolk and Kent. If you want to contain the barbarian threat, that's the place from which to do it.

It's an argument you can make if you wish but Camelot (in various spellings) is only mentioned in the 12th century and remains a subsiduary location in Arthurian literature for some time, so there is no real tradition to draw on.

Sure. There aren't enough hard facts to do a serious history of Arthur, just traces here and tantalising clues there that allow for endless speculation. It's a novelist's dream.

But, donning the historian's hat for a moment, "Camelot" had to come from somewhere - I think it came from Welsh authors? - and even though buried for centuries, it may well have an historical provenance, and it fits so neatly with Camulodunum: right place, right time, right archaeological ruins.

QuoteBut, donning the historian's hat for a moment, "Camelot" had to come from somewhere - I think it came from Welsh authors?

No, it appears from nowhere in 12th France.  It doesn't feature in the insular tradition until introduced from France.  Even when it is introduced, it is a secondary location, separate from the capital Caerleon and there is no mention of a military function.

We should also note Chretien of Troyes , who first mentions Camelot, has form for inventing new parts of the Arthurian cycle - he gives us the tale of Lancelot and Guinevere.

Quote from: Duncan Head on Aug 17, 2021, 12:04 PM
Can we confidently state that Camulodunum was still in Romano-British hands at the most likely dates for Arthur, or would it already have been Anglo-Saxon? Nennius, for what he's worth, clearly sets Vortigern's ceding of the East Sex before Arthur. Unless you think Arthur retook it, of course.

Apparently St Germanus did:

The king being a captive, purchased his redemption, by delivering up the three provinces of East, South, and Middle Sex, besides other districts at the option of his betrayers.

St. Germanus admonished Vortigern to turn to the true God, and abstain from all unlawful intercourse with his daughter; but the unhappy wretch fled for refuge to the province Guorthegirnaim, so called from his own name, where he concealed himself with his wives: but St. Germanus followed him with all the British clergy, and upon a rock prayed for his sins during forty days and forty nights.

The blessed man was unanimously chosen commander against the Saxons. And then, not by the clang of trumpets, but by praying, singing hallelujah, and by the cries of the army to God, the enemies were routed, and driven even to the sea.

Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 12:33 PM
Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

Just that the Saxons were booted out of the territory Vortigern ceded to them, which territory included Colchester.

Which makes things neater, come to think of it. The Saxons are cleared out of Essex, Middlesex and Sussex. That's all the territory around Kent (which apparently remains in Saxon hands). Arthur appears on the scene after the death of Vortigern, which happens after St Germanus' victory:

Again Vortigern ignominiously flew from St. Germanus to the kingdom of the Dimetae, where, on the river Towy, he built a castle, which he named Cair Guothergirn. The saint, as usual, followed him there, and with his clergy fasted and prayed to the Lord three days, and as many nights. On the third night, at the third hour, fire fell suddenly from heaven, and totally burned the castle. Vortigern, the daughter of Hengist, his other wives, and all the inhabitants, both men and women, miserably perished: such was the end of this unhappy king, as we find written in the life of St. Germanus.
.......
St. Germanus, after his (Vortigern's) death, returned into his own country. At that time, the Saxons greatly increased in Britain, both in strength and numbers. And Octa, after the death of his father Hengist, came from the sinistral part of the island to the kingdom of Kent, and from him have proceeded all the kings of that province, to the present period.

Then it was, that the magnanimous Arthur, with all the kings and military force of Britain, fought against the Saxons. And though there were many more noble than himself, yet he was twelve times chosen their commander, and was as often conqueror.

So Arthur happens on the scene when the Saxons control Kent only. If he inserts himself between the Kentish Saxons and the Angles of East Anglia he is best positioned to respond to any threats from either of them, and prevent them from uniting forces. Militarily Colchester makes good sense.

(https://i.imgur.com/yj5s7A8.jpg)

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 17, 2021, 01:27 PM

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 12:33 PM
Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

Just that the Saxons were booted out of the territory Vortigern ceded to them, which territory included Colchester.

If we go to Constantius' account (which is closer in time to the event)

Meanwhile the enemy had learned of the practices and appearance of the camp. They promised themselves an easy victory over practically disarmed troops and pressed on in haste. But their approach was discovered by scouts and, when the Easter solemnities had been celebrated, the army--the greater part of it fresh from the font--began to take up their weapons and prepare for battle and Germanus announced that he would be their general [dux proelii, "leader for this battle"]. He chose some light-armed troops and made a tour of the outworks. In the direction from which the enemy were expected he saw a valley enclosed by steep mountains. Here he stationed an army on a new model, under his own command.

Chapter Eighteen

By now the savage host of the enemy was close at hand and Germanus rapidly circulated an order that all should repeat in unison the call he would give as a battle-cry. Then, while the enemy were still secure in the belief that their approach was unexpected, the bishops three times chanted the Alleluia. All, as one man, repeated it and the shout they raised rang through the air and was repeated many times in the confined space between the mountains.

The enemy were panic-stricken, thinking that the surrounding rocks and the very sky itself were falling on them. Such was their terror that no effort of their feet seemed enough to save them. They fled in every direction, throwing away their weapons and thankful if they could save at least their skins. Many threw themselves into the river which they had just crossed at their ease, and were drowned in it.

Thus the British army looked on at its revenge without striking a blow, idle spectators of the victory achieved. The booty strewn everywhere was collected; the pious soldiery obtained the spoils of a victory from heaven. The bishops were elated at the rout of the enemy without bloodshed and a victory gained by faith and not by force."

So Germanus delivers a victory in a valley in the mountains.  Essex has very few mountains and the battle is usually placed in Wales, which is where Germanus is in the previous paragraph of the (presumably) Nennius quote.  However, Constantius could exaggerate the mountains bit and a valley in hilly country somewhere else could be meant.

The question may be whether we can infer widespread reconquest (or re-establishment of Romanised rule) from a single field action, the scale and location of which is unclear.  perhaps some of the period experts live Dave or Stephen would like to offer a view?

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 01:54 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 17, 2021, 01:27 PM

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 12:33 PM
Isn't this a reference to the Alleluia Victory?  What evidence do you have to connect this to Colchester?

Just that the Saxons were booted out of the territory Vortigern ceded to them, which territory included Colchester.

If we go to Constantius' account (which is closer in time to the event)

Meanwhile the enemy had learned of the practices and appearance of the camp. They promised themselves an easy victory over practically disarmed troops and pressed on in haste. But their approach was discovered by scouts and, when the Easter solemnities had been celebrated, the army--the greater part of it fresh from the font--began to take up their weapons and prepare for battle and Germanus announced that he would be their general [dux proelii, "leader for this battle"]. He chose some light-armed troops and made a tour of the outworks. In the direction from which the enemy were expected he saw a valley enclosed by steep mountains. Here he stationed an army on a new model, under his own command.

Chapter Eighteen

By now the savage host of the enemy was close at hand and Germanus rapidly circulated an order that all should repeat in unison the call he would give as a battle-cry. Then, while the enemy were still secure in the belief that their approach was unexpected, the bishops three times chanted the Alleluia. All, as one man, repeated it and the shout they raised rang through the air and was repeated many times in the confined space between the mountains.

The enemy were panic-stricken, thinking that the surrounding rocks and the very sky itself were falling on them. Such was their terror that no effort of their feet seemed enough to save them. They fled in every direction, throwing away their weapons and thankful if they could save at least their skins. Many threw themselves into the river which they had just crossed at their ease, and were drowned in it.

Thus the British army looked on at its revenge without striking a blow, idle spectators of the victory achieved. The booty strewn everywhere was collected; the pious soldiery obtained the spoils of a victory from heaven. The bishops were elated at the rout of the enemy without bloodshed and a victory gained by faith and not by force."

So Germanus delivers a victory in a valley in the mountains.  Essex has very few mountains and the battle is usually placed in Wales, which is where Germanus is in the previous paragraph of the (presumably) Nennius quote.  However, Constantius could exaggerate the mountains bit and a valley in hilly country somewhere else could be meant.

The question may be whether we can infer widespread reconquest (or re-establishment of Romanised rule) from a single field action, the scale and location of which is unclear.  perhaps some of the period experts live Dave or Stephen would like to offer a view?

Whilst waiting for Dave and Stephen, let me just add that this was Roman Britain, i.e. the road network was still in pristine condition and an army could travel far before being brought to battle, as did the barbarian armies on the continent. The Saxons could have gone anywhere in Britain looking to defeat St Germanus and he could have fought them anywhere. The point is that after the victory they were "driven even to the sea". They weren't completely booted from Britain, but they came close.

Britain in any case isn't a big place: about 150 miles from Kent to Wales. Not a major campaign in anyone's book.

From "driven even to the sea" to "expelled from all their recent conquests" is a bit of a leap.

Quote from: Duncan Head on Aug 17, 2021, 02:12 PM
From "driven even to the sea" to "expelled from all their recent conquests" is a bit of a leap.

It seems pretty equivalent. This bit in Nennius is interesting:

"St. Germanus, after his death, returned into his own country. At that time, the Saxons greatly increased in Britain, both in strength and numbers. And Octa, after the death of his father Hengist, came from the sinistral part of the island to the kingdom of Kent, and from him have proceeded all the kings of that province, to the present period."

So the Saxons increase in numbers, i.e. they don't disappear and return later. The implication is that they linger somewhere and then bolster their numbers later on. Kent was actually Jute but it seems the Saxons, Angles and Jutes worked together at least to some extent, since Hengist and Horsa called them all over to Britain. Possibly the Jutes let the Saxon survivors shelter in Kent?

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 17, 2021, 02:23 PM


It seems pretty equivalent.

Not really.  It could simply mean the raiding party he defeated was driven back to their ships.  Without knowing scale, location or context, its reading too much into a stock phrase,

Quote
So the Saxons increase in numbers, i.e. they don't disappear and return later. The implication is that they linger somewhere and then bolster their numbers later on. Kent was actually Jute but it seems the Saxons, Angles and Jutes worked together at least to some extent, since Hengist and Horsa called them all over to Britain. Possibly the Jutes let the Saxon survivors shelter in Kent?

Or perhaps their penetration West was stopped and they fell back to the Saxon country (whatever the extent of that was at the time).  Reading the affair as an overreach which was stopped, causing a pause in expansion and a period of consolidation, seems more likely, to me at least.  Would Nennius not have mentioned a re-establishment of Roman authority in the Saxon areas if he believed it happened, making St Germanus' achievements even more blessed?

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 02:39 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 17, 2021, 02:23 PM


It seems pretty equivalent.

Not really.  It could simply mean the raiding party he defeated was driven back to their ships.  Without knowing scale, location or context, its reading too much into a stock phrase,

According to the descriptions of Nennius and Constantius this was a good deal more than a raid.

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 17, 2021, 02:39 PM

Quote
So the Saxons increase in numbers, i.e. they don't disappear and return later. The implication is that they linger somewhere and then bolster their numbers later on. Kent was actually Jute but it seems the Saxons, Angles and Jutes worked together at least to some extent, since Hengist and Horsa called them all over to Britain. Possibly the Jutes let the Saxon survivors shelter in Kent?

Or perhaps their penetration West was stopped and they fell back to the Saxon country (whatever the extent of that was at the time).  Reading the affair as an overreach which was stopped, causing a pause in expansion and a period of consolidation, seems more likely, to me at least.  Would Nennius not have mentioned a re-establishment of Roman authority in the Saxon areas if he believed it happened, making St Germanus' achievements even more blessed?

Nennius is clear that this was a reaction by the Romano-british under St Germanus' leadership against the treason of Vortigern who ceded large tracts of land to the Saxons just to save his own skin. Vortigern was the Saxons' man on account of his marriage to Hengist's daughter. He fell from favour after the arrival of St Germanus and the Saxon offensive looks like an attempt to come to his aid after he fled to Guorthegirnaim. Where is Guorthegirnaim BTW? Anyone know?

Nennius mentions that the Jutes and the Saxons fought together:

"At length Vortimer, the son of Vortigern, valiantly fought against Hengist, Horsa, and his people; drove them to the isle of Thanet, and thrice enclosed them with it, and beset them on the western side. The Saxons now despatched deputies to Germany to solicit large reinforcements, and an additional number of ships: having obtained these, they fought against the kings and princes of Britain, and sometimes extended their boundaries by victory, and sometimes were conquered and driven back."

So the last gasp Saxon/Jute holdout is Thanet. After a defeat they were able to whistle up reinforcements from there and resume the offensive.

QuoteAccording to the descriptions of Nennius and Constantius this was a good deal more than a raid.

Perhaps but it isn't clear even what an "army" might consist of at this period.  In this case, operating so far from home, the households of a few warlords perhaps?

Where "home" was might be better answered with archaeology than from Nennius but I admit I'm not up to date on the archaeology.   

QuoteWhere is Guorthegirnaim BTW? Anyone know?

Mid Wales
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwrtheyrnion

I get the impression an army was in the high hundreds to low thousands - Arthur"s unit alone killed hundreds of Saxons at Badon.

Mid-Wales is perfect - just the place for a Saxon relief force to march to and get trounced in the mountains.

Justin, you write the epic novel, quoting your sources and we will let Holly review it. Everyone else that disagrees with your interps can write a letter to Guardroom - that is the next 337 issues of Slingshot sorted...

what did I miss....? :)

Quote from: Holly on Aug 17, 2021, 07:11 PM
what did I miss....? :)

We're missing the Welsh perspective.  ;)

Quote from: Tim on Aug 17, 2021, 06:01 PM
Justin, you write the epic novel, quoting your sources and we will let Holly review it. Everyone else that disagrees with your interps can write a letter to Guardroom - that is the next 337 issues of Slingshot sorted...

It is worth a novel though I probably won't write it. And don't forget I control the Guardroom. Mwahahaha! 😈

The whole history of post-Roman Britain is such a well-worn path it's a trench, but I do pick up a couple of things. First that the Romano-Britains in the middle of the 5th century still saw themselves as part of the Roman world. Someone like St Germanus - a former Roman officer - could take command of their forces without a problem. He doesn't seem to encounter any established king or ruler during his sojourn in Britain. Vortigern seems an ad-hoc primus who has very little he can call his own - just enough troops to man a fort in Wales. He doesn't seem to have control over the British army that itself seems quite professional - using scouts and LI as needed.

Despite the lack of a clear centralised government Roman Britain still sees itself a unity - Vortigern whose power base is in Wales is concerned about what is happening in Scotland. It looks more like regional magistrates trying to govern their towns and keep order whilst praying for a return of imperial authority, not unreasonable considering that the Empire was still alive if unwell and that in the 440's Aetius had stabilised the situation in Gaul and would go on to defeat the Huns, adding enormously to Roman prestige - for a while. Everyone in 440's Britain must have thought the legions would return eventually once things settled down on the continent so weren't into nation-building in any serious way.

Secondly that warfare wasn't confined to one particular region in Britain - the frontier between the Saxon/Angle/Jute enclaves and British territory, but ranged all over the island. There were good interior lines of communication - natural given that the Roman network was intact - which permitted fast movement especially of small forces. So Arthur has no problem fighting everywhere in Britain including Caledonia. Fighting in the north BTW makes sense as Octa, Hengist's son came from there to take command in Kent:

"And Octa, after the death of his father Hengist, came from the sinistral part of the island to the kingdom of Kent, and from him have proceeded all the kings of that province, to the present period."

Which means Octa's original power base was in Scotland which also makes sense as Hengist had originally been brought over by Vorgitern to deal with the Picts north of Hadrian's Wall. So Octa was there doing Hengist's original job and - probably - didn't give up that territory when he took Kent in hand.

The problem with St Germanus and his colleague Lupus of Troyes is that they were in Britain in 429AD or thereabouts.

So his arrival fits better with Gildas's period where peace led to luxuria and self-indulgence.

Sinistral = left side i.e. West rather than North.  I'd suggest this means Octa comes from the western end of the Saxon lands (would this be Hampshire/Dorset at this time?).

The continued "professionalism" of sub-Roman forces is, I know, a theme of yours but it is a bit of a stretch to use the (again) conventional words of Constantius to imply technical designations of a professional army. 

I'll leave others to discuss what exactly Vortigern represented politically and what his origins were likely to be.

Quote from: Erpingham on Aug 18, 2021, 08:19 AM
Sinistral = left side i.e. West rather than North.

Hm? Would west be be equated with left at the time? Medieval maps are often oriented with east at the top, which would give left = north.

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 18, 2021, 05:45 AM

Quote from: Holly on Aug 17, 2021, 07:11 PM
what did I miss....? :)

We're missing the Welsh perspective.  ;)

ahhhh.....I have caught up and find that I would need to gird my loins for a proper response

Convention of orientation has varied over time. Medieval Christian maps have an eastern orientation (whence the term) while Muslim ones of similar date use a southern orientation. Ptolemy's map (probably the closest in time to Germanus) has a northern orientation.

In short, we don't know what sinistral means for sure and IMO it's extremely unwise to draw any definitive conclusions from the term ( but then drawing definitive conclusions from isolated words seems to be the basis for most arthuriana )

Cheers
Mick

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 18, 2021, 08:18 AM
The problem with St Germanus and his colleague Lupus of Troyes is that they were in Britain in 429AD or thereabouts.

So his arrival fits better with Gildas's period where peace led to luxuria and self-indulgence.

Thus enter the problems of chronology and St Germanus' second visit. Too vast to cover in one post. I note just one thing: Nennius gives an exact date for the arrival of Hengist and Horsa:

"The Saxons were received by Vortigern four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and, according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years."

If Edmund is Edmund Ironsides then Nennius' calculations are exact: 447 + 542 = 989 and Edmund began his reign c. 990 (which, yes, put Nennius in the 10th century).

Correction: 447 years from Christ's death puts the date at 480 which obviously is too late. So forget about trusting Nennius' chronology (which is old news I suppose).

This of course is much later than the accepted chronology for St Germanus' first visit. Reading Bede and Constantius, I suspect that Germanus' first visit was purely religious, aimed at stamping out Pelagianism. His intervention against Vortigern came much later, i.e. it was a separate visit and happened only after Vortigern had called the Saxons in as mercenaries and enough time had passed for them to become a serious problem. There is a break in both passages that suggest separate visits:

In Nennius, St Germanus is busy in Wales up to chapter 35, then the narration switches to Vortigern and Hengist from 36 to 39, but St Germanus doesn't reappear until Vortigern marries his own daughter:

"In the meantime, Vortigern, as if desirous of adding to the evils he had already occasioned, married his own daughter, by whom he had a son. When this was made known to St. Germanus, he came, with all the British clergy, to reprove him."

Compare this to Constantius. Up until chapter 17 the holy bishop is doing purely ecclesiastical things. Then:

"Meanwhile, the Saxons and the Picts had joined forces to make war upon the Britons. The latter had been compelled to withdraw their forces within their camp and, judging their resources to be utterly unequal to the contest, asked the help of the holy prelates. The latter sent back a promise to come, and hastened to follow it. Their coming brought such a sense of security that you might have thought that a great army had arrived; to have such apostles for leaders was to have Christ Himself fighting in the camp."

Germanus coming can well be interpreted as his coming from Gaul, and the prestige he had gained from his first visit would have helped cement his authority over the British troops during his second visit. It takes a little time to become known and respected to this extent (added to the fact he may well have appeared at least to some extent as a sort of imperial representative).

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 18, 2021, 08:18 AM
The problem with St Germanus and his colleague Lupus of Troyes is that they were in Britain in 429AD or thereabouts.

So his arrival fits better with Gildas's period where peace led to luxuria and self-indulgence.

Thus enter the problems of chronology and St Germanus' second visit. Too vast to cover in one post. I note just one thing: Nennius gives an exact date for the arrival of Hengist and Horsa:

"The Saxons were received by Vortigern four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and, according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years."

If Edmund is Edmund Ironsides then Nennius' calculations are exact: 447 + 542 = 989 and Edmund began his reign c. 990 (which, yes, put Nennius in the 10th century).

Correction: 447 years from Christ's death puts the date at 480 which obviously is too late. So forget about trusting Nennius' chronology (which is old news I suppose).

This of course is much later than the accepted chronology for St Germanus' first visit. Reading Bede and Constantius, I suspect that Germanus' first visit was purely religious, aimed at stamping out Pelagianism. His intervention against Vortigern came much later, i.e. it was a separate visit and happened only after Vortigern had called the Saxons in as mercenaries and enough time had passed for them to become a serious problem. There is a break in both passages that suggest separate visits:

In Nennius, St Germanus is busy in Wales up to chapter 35, then the narration switches to Vortigern and Hengist from 36 to 39, but St Germanus doesn't reappear until Vortigern marries his own daughter:

"In the meantime, Vortigern, as if desirous of adding to the evils he had already occasioned, married his own daughter, by whom he had a son. When this was made known to St. Germanus, he came, with all the British clergy, to reprove him."

Compare this to Constantius. Up until chapter 17 the holy bishop is doing purely ecclesiastical things. Then:

"Meanwhile, the Saxons and the Picts had joined forces to make war upon the Britons. The latter had been compelled to withdraw their forces within their camp and, judging their resources to be utterly unequal to the contest, asked the help of the holy prelates. The latter sent back a promise to come, and hastened to follow it. Their coming brought such a sense of security that you might have thought that a great army had arrived; to have such apostles for leaders was to have Christ Himself fighting in the camp."

Germanus coming can well be interpreted as his coming from Gaul, and the prestige he had gained from his first visit would have helped cement his authority over the British troops during his second visit. It takes a little time to become known and respected to this extent (added to the fact he may well have appeared at least to some extent as a sort of imperial representative).

or there were 2 or even 3 Germanus's

Quote from: Holly on Aug 18, 2021, 10:49 AM
or there were 2 or even 3 Germanus's

Tch! tch! 2 or even 3 Germani ☝️

meh..... ;D

Quote from: Holly on Aug 18, 2021, 11:04 AM
meh..... ;D

Lucky I'm not this chap (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8).  :o

classic.....

Shouldn't it be Germanuses ? :) 

Back to St Germanus, it appears that his death should be dated to 442 or 448, and but some think that it should be dated to c. 437

A second trip to Britain would still most likely be in the 430s AD

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 18, 2021, 11:32 AM
Back to St Germanus, it appears that his death should be dated to 442 or 448

What would those dates be based on? They seem to be hotly debated estimates.

off the top of my head one set is a work back from the 10th century but without looking it up I cant be sure

Quote from: Justin Swanton on Aug 18, 2021, 11:49 AM

Quote from: Jim Webster on Aug 18, 2021, 11:32 AM
Back to St Germanus, it appears that his death should be dated to 442 or 448

What would those dates be based on? They seem to be hotly debated estimates.

They are but I've given you the range, apparently he died in Rome and it may be he had to die in the presence of a particular pope  ::)

As far as I can understand you can become an expert on this particular century in Britain, or you can have a life and be able to read other stuff
Seriously the amount of stuff out there is ridiculous. Even if you restrict it to respectable academic stuff.
I know the stuff I've noticed and mentioned to Holly could keep an honest man short of sleep trying to catch up with his reading  :-[

ha ha ha  ;D

I cant keep up with the reading required either