SoA Forum

History => Ancient and Medieval History => Topic started by: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 08:12 AM

Title: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 08:12 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/10/stunning-dark-ages-mosaic-found-at-roman-villa-in-cotswolds

Apparently they were laying rather nice mosaic floors after 428AD

To quote the article, "It was possible to date the mosaic thanks to traces of carbon found in a trench dug to build a wall to create the room the mosaic was found in. Dating the carbon strongly suggested the wall was built between 424 and 544 AD. The mosaic was laid in the newly created room after the wall was built."

Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Duncan Head on Dec 10, 2020, 08:27 AM
Of course as the article suggests, this may have been one of the safer regions even when things started to break down elsewhere:

QuoteHe suggested it was also possible that the area was not so badly affected by hostile raids that were taking place in the north and east. "It is interesting to speculate why Chedworth villa's owners were still living in this style well into the fifth century. It seems that in the West Country, the Romanised way of life was sustained for a while."

Very significant find, all the same.
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 08:34 AM
Quote from: Duncan Head on Dec 10, 2020, 08:27 AM
Of course as the article suggests, this may have been one of the safer regions even when things started to break down elsewhere:

QuoteHe suggested it was also possible that the area was not so badly affected by hostile raids that were taking place in the north and east. "It is interesting to speculate why Chedworth villa's owners were still living in this style well into the fifth century. It seems that in the West Country, the Romanised way of life was sustained for a while."

Very significant find, all the same.

Does rather fit with some of the theories put forward that Britannia Prima in the South West remained Romanised for longer
But then we have the various visits of Germanus of Auxerre which indicate that some sort of civilised life hung on
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 10, 2020, 10:15 AM
fab bit of news and article Jim and very 'wow' for me personally
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 10:27 AM
Quote from: Holly on Dec 10, 2020, 10:15 AM
fab bit of news and article Jim and very 'wow' for me personally

I must admit that if I knew how to 'link' you to the post I would have done. I thought you'd like it  8)
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: DBS on Dec 10, 2020, 10:29 AM
I am less surprised at the maintenance of the "villa lifestyle" at that time, more surprised at the ability to find the artisan(s) to lay the mosaic, as one assumes that the decline in conditions probably made it less likely that one could find such a chap in one's local Check-A-Trade leaflet.  Unless Lurkio the slave had a particularly artistic bent, Ludicrus Sextus probably had to import the skill from somewhere else in the country (or even across the Channel), which means ease of communications, and sufficient villa owners wanting new floors for someone to still be in the mosaic flooring business.
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 10:43 AM
Yes, the existence of new mosaic flooring does presume the existence of quite a lot of infrastructure. Somebody is supplying the bits that go to make up the mosaic for example. There is still a 'functioning industry' out there plus good enough communications for the industry to continue to operate
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Erpingham on Dec 10, 2020, 11:04 AM
And the moveable wealth to pay for it.  You are not going to attract a craftsman from afar or abroad with a barter system.
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 10, 2020, 01:32 PM
early 5th C - I suspect still a reasonable amount of coinage/bullion around that can be used...late 5th more of a problem
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 03:38 PM
Another article of interest, which Nigel just posted to the DBMM list

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2016/04/heptarchy-harun-ibn-yahya.html

vaguely related in that it hints at better connections with the rest of the world than appear to be considered canon at the moment  8)
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 10, 2020, 03:44 PM
yes, read this previously and a good article. Generally the Western half of Britain appears to have had a reasonable relationship with various continental connections
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Mark G on Dec 10, 2020, 05:14 PM
That part hasn't changed, anyway
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: DBS on Dec 10, 2020, 06:16 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on Dec 10, 2020, 11:04 AM
And the moveable wealth to pay for it.  You are not going to attract a craftsman from afar or abroad with a barter system.
Maybe we now have a proper explanation for the Adventus Saxonum - Hengist and Horsa were in fact itinerant tesserae salesmen who became very miffed when Vortigern tried to pay them for his new mosaic with two chickens and a low-mileage slavegirl.
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 10, 2020, 06:21 PM
Quote from: DBS on Dec 10, 2020, 06:16 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on Dec 10, 2020, 11:04 AM
And the moveable wealth to pay for it.  You are not going to attract a craftsman from afar or abroad with a barter system.
Maybe we now have a proper explanation for the Adventus Saxonum - Hengist and Horsa were in fact itinerant tesserae salesmen who became very miffed when Vortigern tried to pay them for his new mosaic with two chickens and a low-mileage slavegirl.

;D
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 10, 2020, 06:41 PM
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/chedworth-roman-villa/features/britains-first-known-5th-century-mosaic-found-at-chedworth-roman-villa?fbclid=IwAR2M6x_-X8j778zqPHiwhqrs33H46ZP8Z0K8K4o66Ta2xrSCfv529MYCpHk more info
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Tim on Dec 10, 2020, 09:19 PM
I am amazed that Dave has not linked it to an Arthur/Dux B origin...
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 10, 2020, 09:20 PM
patience my padawan friend..... ;D
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 09:25 PM
Quote from: Holly on Dec 10, 2020, 09:20 PM
patience my padawan friend..... ;D

Camelot obviously had superior décor   8)
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 10, 2020, 09:28 PM
Quote from: Jim Webster on Dec 10, 2020, 09:25 PM
Quote from: Holly on Dec 10, 2020, 09:20 PM
patience my padawan friend..... ;D

Camelot obviously had superior décor   8)

The Dux obviously thought it was important to make an impression....
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Erpingham on Dec 11, 2020, 10:08 AM
Quote from: Tim on Dec 10, 2020, 09:19 PM
I am amazed that Dave has not linked it to an Arthur/Dux B origin...

"And when Arthur came home from campaign, he was pleased to see Guinevere had been getting on with some interior decorating in the latest continental styles.  Those connections to Armorica that came with the job were paying dividends."
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 11, 2020, 10:32 AM
I did read somewhere that there was still some uncertainty about this latest dating but it was on Twitter and cant find it now...
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: aligern on Dec 11, 2020, 10:45 AM
Chedworth is only a couple of miles away. It is close to the Fosse way and  to Cirencester which was a Roman road hub.  The area was lijely Romanised  until the battle of Dyrrham (577?) when Cirencester, Bath and Gloucester fell. There is a plausible suggestion that the battle of Badon is sited near the village of Baydon with the hill fort at  Liddington or at Badbury Rings being a potential site. Strategically these command two Roman roads from the South and East and woukd be a good place to garrison against forces moving up from Sussex or from Kent. However, I am not aware offany archaeology backing the idea of a fixed garrison.  However, there might only be troops stationed there when the Saxons approached.  They could then await the arrival of a mounted force.
As to mosaic, you create tesserae from sheets of stone or marble  ( unless they are clay)  which are then split with a hammer on a blade set in a block of wood, a 'hardie''. Chedworth being close to Cirencesterwould  offer access to old, recyclable mosaics in decaying buildings and perhaps chaps with appropriate skills, after all there was likely building maintenance going on even in the early sixth century.
Roy
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 11, 2020, 11:29 AM
Quote from: aligern on Dec 11, 2020, 10:45 AM
Chedworth is only a couple of miles away. It is close to the Fosse way and  to Cirencester which was a Roman road hub.  The area was lijely Romanised  until the battle of Dyrrham (577?) when Cirencester, Bath and Gloucester fell. There is a plausible suggestion that the battle of Badon is sited near the village of Baydon with the hill fort at  Liddington or at Badbury Rings being a potential site. Strategically these command two Roman roads from the South and East and woukd be a good place to garrison against forces moving up from Sussex or from Kent. However, I am not aware offany archaeology backing the idea of a fixed garrison.  However, there might only be troops stationed there when the Saxons approached.  They could then await the arrival of a mounted force.
As to mosaic, you create tesserae from sheets of stone or marble  ( unless they are clay)  which are then split with a hammer on a blade set in a block of wood, a 'hardie''. Chedworth being close to Cirencesterwould  offer access to old, recyclable mosaics in decaying buildings and perhaps chaps with appropriate skills, after all there was likely building maintenance going on even in the early sixth century.
Roy

Dyrham (Deorham) is another of those fascinating battles that gives us tantalising information but not great detail. One I have studied and done groundwork/visits for
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Nick Harbud on Dec 11, 2020, 03:59 PM
Some years ago I visited the villa at Casale in Sicily.  It is widely believed that this villa was built for the Governor of Sicily during the late 3rd or early 4th centuries, meaning it is somewhat removed both geographically and chronologically from anything in this thread.  Nevertheless, it is a very large edifice with probably the most extensive mosaic floors that I have ever seen, all well-preserved thanks to being burind following an earthquake.

Anyway, the local guide was very good at pointing out the different styles of the mosaics in the various rooms.  Her opinion was that this was not any great or deliberate artistic gesture, but merely the result of the owner being in a hurry.  One can imagine he wanted a fully accoutred palace suitable for impressing the locals in the least possible time.  Therefore, several different mosaic floor-laying teams were summoned from as far away as Africa and even Britannia.  It appears they were simply told to get on with it and lay floors in their designated rooms.

Sometimes the simple explanations are the best.   :-\
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 11, 2020, 04:42 PM
Quote from: NickHarbud on Dec 11, 2020, 03:59 PM
Some years ago I visited the villa at Casale in Sicily.  It is widely believed that this villa was built for the Governor of Sicily during the late 3rd or early 4th centuries, meaning it is somewhat removed both geographically and chronologically from anything in this thread.  Nevertheless, it is a very large edifice with probably the most extensive mosaic floors that I have ever seen, all well-preserved thanks to being burind following an earthquake.

Anyway, the local guide was very good at pointing out the different styles of the mosaics in the various rooms.  Her opinion was that this was not any great or deliberate artistic gesture, but merely the result of the owner being in a hurry.  One can imagine he wanted a fully accoutred palace suitable for impressing the locals in the least possible time.  Therefore, several different mosaic floor-laying teams were summoned from as far away as Africa and even Britannia.  It appears they were simply told to get on with it and lay floors in their designated rooms.

Sometimes the simple explanations are the best.   :-\

Builders of such renown in the ancient worlds as Bodgeitus et Scarperus
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 12, 2020, 07:09 PM
https://twitter.com/i/status/1337677868499922944
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 12, 2020, 08:55 PM
Quote from: Holly on Dec 12, 2020, 07:09 PM
https://twitter.com/i/status/1337677868499922944

Nice
It does occur to me that as more and more stuff does get excavated, some of the simple old certainties are going to fade slowly into the background
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 12, 2020, 09:06 PM
Quote from: Jim Webster on Dec 12, 2020, 08:55 PM
Quote from: Holly on Dec 12, 2020, 07:09 PM
https://twitter.com/i/status/1337677868499922944

Nice
It does occur to me that as more and more stuff does get excavated, some of the simple old certainties are going to fade slowly into the background

and that is why we must keep digging....
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 12, 2020, 09:39 PM
https://archaeologynationaltrustsw.wordpress.com/2020/10/06/the-5th-century-chedworth-mosaic/

blog entry on the find....very interesting
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Jim Webster on Dec 13, 2020, 07:01 AM
Quote from: Holly on Dec 12, 2020, 09:39 PM
https://archaeologynationaltrustsw.wordpress.com/2020/10/06/the-5th-century-chedworth-mosaic/

blog entry on the find....very interesting

yes thanks for posting that
Here's to more west country villa excavations  8)
Title: Re: Very late Roman mosaic floor
Post by: Imperial Dave on Dec 13, 2020, 08:42 AM
I found the blog really quite interesting, even th e bit about finding the bone that tested more towards the 4th/5th C than the 5/6th C