Battle: Brouwershaven, January 13 1426 AD
Combatants: Burgundy (Duke Philippe "The Good") and the Holland and Zeeland "Cods"; vs English and "Hooks", mainly Zeelanders (Walter, Baron FitzWalter, and Floris III van Haamstede)
Background
Jacqueline of Bavaria had inherited a claim to the counties of Hainault, Holland and Zeeland, from her father Count William VI. She had married Duke John IV of Brabant, but the marriage broke down. John passed his claim to his cousin Philip, Duke of Burgundy; Jacqueline passed hers to her new husband, Humphrey Duke of Gloucester. Jacqueline's partisans occupied parts of Holland and Zeeland and requested English help from Gloucester, who sent FitzWalter with some troops; Philip led a Burgundian force north to assert his claim. In continuance of internal Netherlandish factionalism, the "Cods" – predominantly the commercial cities - supported Burgundy, the "Hooks" – nobles and smaller towns - were pro-Jacqueline.
Reported numbers: Burgundians 4-8,000; English and Zeelanders, 2-4,000
Sources
1. Letter written by Duke Philip of Burgundy to the council at Dijon, 19 Jan 1426
English translation in Richard Vaughan, Philip the Good: The Apogee of Burgundy (1970), pp.42-43. Original in Gachard, Rapport ... sur les documents concernants l'histoire de la Belgique ... Archives de Dijon (1843), 116-117, online at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951002089956d&seq=124
"At about two o'clock in the morning of Saturday, the 5th of this month, when we were at Leiden in Holland, definite news reached us that Lord Fitzwalter, self-styled Lieutenant of the Duke of Gloucester in the lands of Holland and Zeeland, had arrived near Zierikzee in Zeeland with 1,500 English soldiers, intending to join forces with the duchess (Jacqueline) of Brabant and make war in Holland and Zeeland. Consequently, in order to resist this English expedition, we left Leiden at dawn and reached Rotterdam the same day. Next day we took ship, accompanied by people from our own lands as well as Hollanders ("Dutchmen" in Vaughan; "gens ... de Hollande" original) and Zeelanders, with the intention of contacting and fighting the English at sea.
While at sea, our people came across some of the English, numbering about 300, all of whom were taken or killed. We then pursued the other English forces to the port of Brouwershaven in Zeeland, where they had retreated and disembarked. As we were anchored off the town and port of Brouwershaven, they sent the herald Gloucester to us, to state on behalf of their captain Lord Fitzwalter that if we would like to fight him, he would offer us a time and a place for the battle. But we sent our herald Burgundy to reply to Fitzwalter, that it was hardly up to him to choose the battlefield, since we were strong enough to station ourselves, and to offer battle, w1herever and whenever we chose.
After that, because of the weather, which was very windy, we stayed at sea, taking care to keep them blockaded, until last Sunday, 13th day of this month, when the winds died down sufficiently. Then we and our people, numbering about 4,000 combatants, disembarked at the port of Brouwershaven, and attacked the English, with whom were the lord of Heemstede and his cousin the count of Heemstede, accompanied by 3,000 combatants from Zeeland. In all, counting English and Zeelanders allied to them, there must have been over 4,000 enemy.
By the grace of God, they were defeated. A good many were put to flight, and we chased these into the sea, so that few escaped. This in spite of the fact that, at the moment when battle was joined with the English, only about two-thirds of our people had got on shore. For the English advanced to attack us, and began to fight us, before all our men had disembarked. On our side, no one of note was killed, except for Sir Andrieu de Valines (God have mercy on him), but several were wounded. Of the enemy, the captains and principal men are dead, except for the lord of Heemstede, who is a prisoner, and a good 200 English also prisoners. The rest are dead or dispersed, either on the battlefield or in pursuit. Nevertheless, with regard to the said Fitzwalter, we still have not ascertained if he is dead or taken, but part of his armour, which he wore in the battle, has been found, also his banner, flung to the ground. And several people claim that he fled."
2. Anonymous chronicler, "Le livre des trahisons de France envers la Maison de Bourgogne"; published in "Chroniques Relatives à l'Histoire de la Belgique sous la Domination des Ducs de Bourgogne" (Académie Royale, Bruxelles, 1873; reprint ForgottenBooks.com; or available online at https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/view/bsb11135325?page=194,195 ); pp.179-183. Translation DH.
"Duke Philip, to comfort and assist the Hollanders of his party, about the month of December summoned men-at-arms, whom he called "codfish" (cabillaux, Dutch kabeljauwen) and garrisoned the above-mentioned towns with them. He sent into garrison messire Jehan d'Uthquerke, messire Andrieu de Valines, Monseigneur de l'Ile-Adam and several other captains from France, Picardie, Burgundy and Flanders. It happened that, about Christmas or at least the week after, some lords of Holland and Hainault had gone to England to the Duke of Gloucester seeking help. They were on a great fleet ("à grosse navire", which looks like it ought to mean one ship, but that doesn't match the next phrase) for there were 23 large hulks, equipped for two thousand combatants, the best men-at-arms and archers ("gens d'armes et de trait") of the best quality, as was reported to Duke Philip by captains who had seen them in the war in France. When this army had to pass by Sluis ("l'Escluse") in Flanders, messire Guillebert de Lannoy, captain of the garrison, sent light boats to let Duke Philip know, who was then at The Hague; who left with all his people as quickly as he could, at midnight, and set out with great effort by sea to Schiedam ("Squidem") on the eve of the Three Kings (January 5, the night before Epiphany), and had the communes of Holland and Zeeland loyal to him, such as Dordrecht, The Hague, Schiedam, Rotterdam and Haarlem, hastily arm themselves, along with several lords of Zeeland, so that in four days there were six score (VIxx) ships at sea.
Now we will tell you of the English who, with a great army, passed the coast of Flanders with the intention of conquering all the said country holding to the part of Duke Philippe. This Lannoy was at them all the time with light boats handy and suitable for the waters of Holland, which are so shallow that the boats of England could not make their way easily where they went; and since they could not make port, two or three vessels stayed on the sandbanks; these the Flemings took, and made prisoners of those aboard. And it is certainly likely that they would have conquered the whole country and reduced it to obedience, if they had had boats suitable for the seas of Holland, but however they rescued and gathered their people from the ships that had been grounded by small boats ("botequins"). When the English saw that they could not pass easily because of the nature of their ships, they wanted to reach Zierikzee ("Serixé"), a powerful town in Zeeland, but the people of that town did not want to let them, saying that they would not obey either one side or the other so they would wait for whichever party proved the stronger; and they held on to that.
Thus the English pushed on to a port named Brouwershaven ("Braushave"), where they stayed for eight days; where people from the said town of Zierikzee brought them provisions in return for money, and did the same for the army and the host of Duke Philip. When Saturday came, it was calm and fine. The said fleet ("navire" again) approached within half a league of the port of Brouwershaven, right in front of the lodgings of the English, where they began to sound their trumpets and clarions.
When the English saw them, they hurried out of the town at once, and headed towards England along the dike in disarray, and their train consisted of both men-at-arms and baggage all pell-mell for a good quarter of a league. Some carried their baggage at their necks. Duke Philip had his scouts watch to see what path they would take, but when they were about half a league distant, they came down from the said dike so that they could no longer be seen, and were then moving through the countryside of Zeeland at random, but they realised that, by doing so, they would not dare return before the duke who had sent them there (that is, the Duke of Gloucester). They recovered their spirit and put themselves into order of battle and in formation so fine that there could be no better for that number of men.
The men of Dordrecht, which has a reputation in Holland comparable to Ghent in Flanders and who wished to have the position of honour in any situation in which they found themselves, disembarked the first and plundered the boats of the English on their way. They then set themselves in order of battle on the dike in front of the town of Brouwershaven, about fifteen hundred men all wearing red ("vermaux") chaperons striped ("bendés") in white, and with two similar banners. The men of The Hague and Delft were as many or more, wearing black chaperons striped in white and two similar banners. The men of Zeeland, that is those of Borsele and of Veere ("les Bourselaires at ceux de la Vere") were also there, and all the communes of these towns took the part of Duke Philip, numbering six or seven thousand men armed in the fashion of the country. At this point they attacked the English; the men of Dordrecht went first, just as the (Burgundian) men-at-arms could barely get out of the boats, for they all had to be brought one after another to land because of the ebbing sea, which was a long and drawn-out affair. And if the English had been drawn up closer or if they had set themselves in battle order upon leaving the town and there had opposed the disembarkation from the boats, they (the Burgundians) could all have been killed or drowned. At the start there was a cannonier from Dordrecht who was the first to fire two shots from a culevrinne as close as he could approach, but they were all astonished when the English made so little account of it. The English began to march carefully in step ("bellement pas à pas") and, when they came close, they gave a terrible cry and sounded their trumpets and clarions.
They had eleven silken pennons, and all their men at arms were armed in full and complete cuirasses, sallets on their heads so as to enter on the field of death. When they came close to each other, the men of the communes shot off in one volley more than a thousand crossbows, which did as much damage to the English as if they were rotten apples. But these English shot arrows so strongly that they at once threw the battle-line of the communes into disarray, and in this disarray they fell back as fast as they could behind their banners.
Messire Thierry Garbode was knighted that day, and set to carrying the banner of messire Jehan d'Uthquerke, who raised his banner that day. The lord of Veere ("seigneur de la Vere") was made a knight, and so were Robert Kanin, Jehan Withem and several others. After these knightings, the banners of the noble duke Philip, accompanied by many others, approached. The English archers were deployed in two wings, of which one shot at the men of Dordrecht and did them great harm, and the other shot at the aforementioned banners. It happened that the most distinguished captain that day was Duke Philip, and the one who had the most men-at-arms was messire Andrieu de Valines, seneschal of Boulogne ("de Boulenois"), who threw himself into battle without has helmet and without his banner, which went ill for him because an arrow hit him in the eye and struck him dead. Monseigneur de l'Ile carried the square banner of Duke Philip that day, and was right behind him in the midst of his knights, each one wearing his coat of arms. The staff of the said banner and the armour of the sire de l'Ile-Adam were stuck all over with arrows. The armour of the said l'Ile-Adam was not pierced by any of the arrows, but many other cuirasses were.
Without a doubt the Flemings and Hollanders would have been thrown back into the sea, if no others had come up; but as soon as these noble men came, who were strongly armed, they took no account of the shooting of the English, so they bore themselves so bravely that although the English defended themselves marvellously they nonetheless could not stand against the power of the good Duke. For at once by the force of pikes ("picques"), axes, and swords, their banner-bearers were put to death and all their ensigns thrown to the ground, whereupon some of them took to flight along the dike; but those who could not flee were seized by the men of the communes and slain without pity, for they killed the nobles along with the commoners and the brave with the cowards, and even after their death gave them more than a hundred blows and each one wanted his share. The poor English archers were thrown into ditches where they were drowned, or, if it happened that they got out, they were beaten to death upon coming out, and there was no man so great who would have dared to take a prisoner, unless he wanted to be killed himself, for these men of the communes were so bold when they saw the flight of those who had previously defeated them, that they had mercy on no one; so they (the English) wanted to run to the men-at-arms who were taking prisoners according to custom.
When the battle started there came two countrymen on two wretched horses from outside the port, of whom one was the bailiff of Duke Philip whom he always took to his battles. The herald of the Duke of Gloucester was promptly taken to him, very richly dressed in a woollen gown charged all over with ornaments of fine gold, and over it the coat-of-arms of his master whose title he bore, and there he was asked about the lord of Heemstede ("Hamesté"), the leader of the English, and about several others who had come there from Holland and Hainault and England, but he said for certain that they were dead on the field, which much displeased Duke Philip and those noble men around him. Certainly that day many noble knights were dead on the field, for no-one could protect them from the communes, who would have done little if there not been others with them. Thus was the business finished, and then they went on to reduce most of the towns held by the opposing party to obedience."
Brouwershaven continued:
3. Monstrelet: The Chronicles of Enguerrand de Monstrelet, containing an account of the cruel civil wars between the houses of Orleans and Burgundy, of the possession of Paris and Normandy by the English, their expulsion thence, and of other memorable events that happened in the kingdom of France, as well as in other countries. Trans. Thomas Johnes (London, 1810) Volume VI, Chapter 38:
"While the duke of Burgundy was carrying on a deadly warfare in Holland against his cousin the duchess Jacquiline, about five hundred English, all picked men, arrived at Zuricksee in Zealand, under the command of the lord Fitzwalter, calling himself lieutenant for the duke of Gloucester in the countries of Holland and Zealand. This body of men advanced toward the duchess to aid her to support the war. The duke of Burgundy was at Leyden when he heard of the landing of this reinforcement; he departed thence with about four thousand combatants, whom he had assembled from his different territories, and marched to Rotterdam, where he embarked with the intent to meet the English and offer them battle. In the mean time, a party of Burgundians, falling in with them, were defeated, slain or made prisoners by the English. The duke having had intelligence that his enemies, Dutch, Zeelanders, and English, amounted from two to three thousand combatants, and were at the port of _Branvers en une aduene_ (Brouwershaven), he marched thither, and made so successful an attack on them that they were soon discomfited. From seven to eight hundred of his enemies lay dead on the field: the rest fled in great confusion toward the sea-shore, and great part saved themselves on board their vessels. Among those who escaped were the lord Fitzwalter and the lord de Hentredée (Heemstede). On the part of the duke of Burgundy, the only man of note that was killed, was sir Andrew de Valines: Robert de Brimeu was carried away so badly wounded that he died thereof. After this victory, the duke collected his men around him, and most humbly returned thanks to his Creator for the fortunate issue of the day. Having strengthened the garrisons of those towns under his obedience, he returned to Flanders to collect reinforcements to carry on his war in Holland against the duchess with greater vigour."
4. Olivier de la Marche: Memoirs of Olivier de la Marche: Mémoires d' Olivier De La Marche, maître d'hotel et capitaine des gardes de Charles le Téméraire (Paris, 1883), Vol. 1 , pp.92-93; trans. DH.
"But the Duke of Gloucester ... raised an army led by Lord Fitzwalter ("Fievastre") and sent it to Holland. To resist this, the Duke (of Burguundy) went there in person and crossed the sea, and found the English embattled at a place called Brouwershaven ("Broussane"), and the Duke came down on the dike ("descendit sur la dicque"), by force of handstrokes and gunpowder ("a force de trait a main et de pouldre"), and bravely disembarked, fought and defeated the English. And there died the said Lord Fitzwalter, and many English of his company. And then the Duke laid siege to Zevenbergen, and built wooden towers on boats, because the town is close to the sea, and he took it in a short time, and subdued Holland, Zeeland and lower Friesland, for although thee Hooks were against him, the Cods were for him."
5. Jehan de Wavrin: Chronicle of Jehan de Wavrin: A Collection of the Chronicles and Ancient Histories of Great Britain, now Called England (ed. and trans. Edward L C P Hardy, London, 1891; reprint Cambridge U P, Volume 3) Chapters XLVI-XLVII pp.132-134
"(XLVI) ... It happened also that about this time, when the duke of Gloucester was informed of the loss of the country of Hainault; how the duchess his wife had been carried off to Ghent; and also how she had escaped and gone into her countries of Holland and Zeeland, where she was obeyed as lady of the country, except by some good towns which, as has been said above, had opened their gates to the duke of Burgundy, who was making very active war on the lady Jacqueline, and she defending herself as best she could; that the said duke of Gloucester, to aid and comfort his wife, sent one of his own knights, called lord Fitzwalter, with about five hundred chosen combatants, into the said countries of Holland and Zeeland, where he gave himself out as lieutenant of the said duke. But the duke of Burgundy, who was then at the Hague in Holland, knowing of the invasion, went to Ziriczee, near which town they had landed, some of whom the Burgundians overwhelmed, captured and killed. Then it was reported to the said duke of Burgundy, who was at Rotterdam, that his enemies, as well Hollanders and Zeelanders as English, had assembled from about two to three thousand combatants at a harbour of Zeeland names Brouwershaven; so he pursued them with great courage and landed, he and his men, at the said harbour of Brouwershaven, where his said enemies were; and when the duke perceived them he admonished his men to do well, and made there many new knights, among whom was Philip de Montmorency, who was quite a youth.
(XLVII) How the Duke of Burgundy discomfited at Brouwershaven the English and Hollanders, whose commander was Lord Fitzwalter an Englishman.
Then the duke with great courage made his army march forward and the English and Hollanders did likewise, and the archers of the two parties began to shoot so briskly that there seemed to be a cloud and a canopy over the field from the thickness of the arrows; then they took to lances and pikes, with which they killed each other, then to axes, swords, and leaden clubs, with which they smote each other with so much force that those they reached fell to the ground; mercy had no place there, for it was only with grievous hurt that any could rise again; and each one was so engaged in defending himself against his assailant, that with great difficulty could anyone aid his cousin or his brother. But in the end the English took to flight, as also did those of their party; so the duke of Burgundy remained victorious, and there were left dead upon the place about twelve hundred of those of the party of the lady Jacqueline, and the remainder took to flight in great disorder, and were pursued as far as the sea, where a great part of them escaped to the ships of the English, among whom escaped the lord Fitzwalter, the chief commander, and the lord of Hanterdee (Heemstede). And of the party of the duke of Burgundy there died on the spot, of men of name, only sir Vallins; and sir Robert de Brimeu was carried off the place very badly wounded, whereof he afterwards died. After this victory the duke of Burgundy re-assembled his men, and humbly returned thanks to the Creator for his good fortune; then soon after he appointed garrisons of his men in the said country of Holland in the places which obeyed him, and returned into his country of Flanders to collect fresh men to go again into the said country of Holland, to carry on the war more vigorously than before against those holding the party of the duchess Jacqueline."
Commentary
Location
Brouwershaven (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brouwershaven)is a port in the province – formerly the county – of Zeeland, on the coast of the Grevelingenmeer, which is now a closed-off lake but was formerly open to the sea.
The battle accounts mention a dike; the Burgundian militias initially deployed along the dike, so we can see that it ran parallel to the battle-lines. Vaughan's account (Philip the Good pp.42-44) has the English "driven back onto, and then along, a dyke", which implies that the dike is at that point behind their battle line, still it would seem parallel to it. Nevertheless for whatever reason, the wargame reconstruction "Disgraceful luck" suggests that the battle was fought with the dike on one flank and the sea on the other, which places the dike perpendicular to the line of battle. This seems an odd choice.
Numbers
This is not a big battle. Duke Philip himself estimates about 4,000 combatants on each side, with about 1,200 English (an original 1,500 less 300 intercepted at sea) and 3,000 Zeelanders perhaps giving the Jacquelinists a slight edge. The anonymous chronicler of the Livre des Trahisons suggests more – 6-7,000 urban militiamen alone on the Burgundian side. Monstrelet has 4,000 Burgundians against 2-3,000 English and Zeelanders. Wavrin has as few as 500 English, and a total of 2-3,000 on their side. Duke Philip's letter is the most contemporary source, but it does look as if he may be fudging the facts to make the fight appear equal while he may actually have had at least a slight numerical advantage.
Prominent on the Burgundian side were, according to the Livre des Trahisons, 1,000 or more crossbowmen, and some gunners from Dordrecht – or at least one gunner, since only one culevrinne is mentioned. (At this period, coulovrine in its various spellings could indicate either a handgun or a small artillery piece.)
The English archers feature prominently, but I can find no statement of how many of the English contingent were archers and how many men-at-arms. A large majority of archers would be expected for English armies at this date. Sumption (p.189) quotes Gloucester Herald as describing "the flower of England's archers, the elect of the elect"; but I cannot identify the original source for this statement from his endnotes.
Though the Zeelander "Hooks" seem to have provided most of the troops in the Anglo-Zeelander army, their equipment and tactics are not mentioned.
The Battle
The Livre des Trahisons gives the fullest account of the battle. The English had occupied Brouwershaven but evacuated it in a hurry when the Burgundian fleet was sighted. The Burgundians began to disembark and the city militias formed up in order of battle while the rest of the force, the Duke with his men-at-arms, disembarked in their turn. The Duke's own letter confirms that the battle started before all his men were ashore. English archery forced the militias back, but then the Burgundian men-at-arms made it to the field and in their turn defeated the English and their allies.
Most modern accounts of the battle, if they go into any detail at all, state that the decisive Burgundian charge was delivered on horseback. Thus Smith and DeVries, p.96: "but then Philip and his heavily-armored cavalry appeared to strengthen the line, seemingly impervious to the English archers...". Unfortunately, while the Burgundian armour does indeed seem to have been decisive protection against English archery, no source mentions explicitly whether the Duke's men-at-arms engaged mounted or on foot.
The only sources that Smith and DeVries mention are Vaughan and the Livre des Trahisons, and neither of those mention a mounted charge, or even mention horses at all. The same is true of every other source for the battle that I have found. So I suggest that we do not really know whether Philip charged mounted or on foot; and I also suggest that a dismounted attack is far more likely.
Burgundian men-at-arms were of course perfectly capable of fighting on foot, and had done so when fighting in alliance with the English, for example at Cravant in 1423, when an ordinance issued for the allied army stated that:
"It was agreed that, when they arrived at the battlefield, they would all dismount ... The horses to be led half a league to the rear..."
It seems likely that the Burgundians' experience of fighting afoot alongside the English would have led them to fight in the same way against them. Philip's own letter says that he originally set sail with the intention of fighting the English at sea – for which he was hardly likely to take horses. The Livre des Trahisons talks about the difficulty the Burgundians had in disembarking for the battle – but there is no mention of horse-transports or of any part that offloading horses might have played in these difficulties. The Livre's account of the fighting once the Duke's men-at-arms are engaged sounds far more like an infantry fight than a cavalry charge to me – the weapons include pikes and axes rather than lances, and nobody is unhorsed or ridden down. Wavrin's account does include lances – which could of course be used on foot as well as on horseback - but also sounds more like infantry combat than a mounted charge.
With the reservation that we don't know what the lord of Heemstede and his Zeelander nobles were up to, this sounds to me like an entirely infantry battle.
Hoods and flags
The Dordrecht militia wore red hoods striped in some way in white – "portans tous vermaux chaperons bendés de blanc et deux pareilles banières". The use of red and white as colours of Dordrecht goes back to the 13th century; the arms of the city of Dordrecht (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordrecht) are gules, a pale argent – red with a vertical white stripe – though the flag, at least as flown today (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nl-zh-dr.html), is gules a fess argent – a horizontal stripe . This might imply that the headgear – strictly, a chaperon is a hat derived from a folded hood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaperon_(headgear)) – if similar to the flag, had a horizontal white stripe, but it is not clear to me how this would work. Perhaps red lined, or edged, white is a possible interpretation?
The arms of Delft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delft) are, similarly, argent a pale sable - white with a black vertical stripe - and again the colours were used, in some arrangement or other, for the chaperons.
(Smith and DeVries, p.96, say that the gunners "wore special uniforms which included hats banded in red and white", which is obvious nonsense since the Livre des Trahisons explicitly says that all, tous, the Dordrecht militia were thus clad.)
References
(References for the original sources are already given above)
Robert Douglas Smith and Kelly DeVries, The Artillery of the Dukes of Burgundy 1363-1477 (Boydell 2005)
Jonathan Sumption, Triumph and Illusion: The Hundred Years' War V (Faber 2023)
Richard Vaughan, Philip the Good: The Apogee of Burgundy (1970; Boydell, 2002)
"Disgraceful luck: The battle of Brouwershaven" - https://janwillembootsblog.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/disgraceful-luck-the-battle-of-brouwershaven-1426/
Would have made a good Slingshot article.
I like Burgundians. It gives something for my Swiss to trample over!
Quote from: stevenneate on Jun 30, 2026, 03:30 AMWould have made a good Slingshot article.
I like Burgundians. It gives something for my Swiss to trample over!
It is indeed a good article, I am sure Richard would be very happy to put it in Slingshot, many more will then read it. I am always surprised at convention how small a proportion are on the forum.
Quote from: stevenneate on Jun 30, 2026, 03:30 AMWould have made a good Slingshot article.
The next stage is a DBMM scenario, and then a game at the club. After that ...
Given that the battle took place in Brewers' Harbour, do you think it took place before anyone was able to organise a suitable piss-up... ???
It would make an interesting battle for Test of Resolve 8)
Excellent Dave. Interesting battle.
Incidentally, this battle is often quoted in "longbows are useless against full harness" discussions.
Well, whilst Duncan is busy developing the DBMM scenario for this battle and Dave Knight is looking at for Test of Resolve, are there any other rulesets that might be suitable? With only 4,000 participants on each side, one would think that there must be any number of small battle/structured skirmish rules that might be suitable.
For example, has anyone tried this using Never Mind The Billhooks or Midgard?
???