For some reason I have it in my head that there is a description of some Sarmatians being armed with clubs. I know that there is a reference to Palestinian clubmen but I think there is also one that applies to Sarmatians.
Any ideas?
Imp Dave,
There was figure 28a in Phil Barker's (PB's) AEIR book, that depicted a German warrior with club based on Trajan's column, said to be Roman auxiliaries (in some descriptions of Trajans column) or more likely symmachiarii, as noted by PB. Armed so to counter the Sarmatian cataphracts and elsewhere said to be depicting the fighting to take hillforts off Dacians.
And the Bastarnae who are sometimes described as east Germans, who fought with Dacians (and Sarmatians) against Rome and were famous for their falx, as depicted by figure 85 in PB's AEIR.
CarlL
I don't know of any reference to Sarmatians armed with clubs, no.
Thanks both. Probably misread something
This article contains a survey of text references to Sarmatian weaponry
https://ojs.bibl.u-szeged.hu/index.php/chronica/article/download/10740/10631/11100&ved=2ahUKEwic-dGKzdGRAxXzU0EAHTMLLFw4ChAWegQIIxAB&usg=AOvVaw2iv9t66lIPUrv8oeNpQK8P
No mention of clubs. Maybe you read it in a secondary source?
Could of course be a typo if the Palestinian clubmen were Samaritans...
Its nagging me now...a Roman source perhaps?
Having looked at it again I suspect i have it the wrong way around and that Romans might have employed clubs againstSarmatians....?
Can't recall any accounts of Romans using clubs against Sarmatians. We have troops from Palestine using them against Palmyrans, Constantine's troops using them against other Romans and Constantius II's troops using them against Sasanids.
Thanks Nik, very much obliged putting this old duffer straight. Much appreciated for the info :)
I think the pictorial references on Trajan's column is to the German mercenaries fighting with clubs, for the Romans against the Dacians and their allies like Bastarnae and Sarmatians.
CarlL
Thanks Carl
I think my query on the Germans with clubs would be "Are they shown fighting Sarmatians?" The danger is that we will see men with clubs and we will conclude because of later instances that they have brought them along to fight armoured cavalry. But they may have clubs to reflect the cliche that Germans were iron poor.
If its just on Trajan's column I'd suggest its highly likely to be a cliché.
cliche as in stereotype? Nik.
I am no student of Roman art, sculpture or literature, but often these are our only depiction of Rome's soldiers (or enemies) from such artefacts.
So the original sculpture of Trajan's column undoubtedly had a message other than just literal and pictorial representation; and those depicted may never have been seen by those creating the work. However its a key pictorial source that was intended to display Trajan's martial success and those he fought.
cliche perhaps fails to relate to any evidence as a statement.
context is important Anthony / Erpingham, and despite many images being available publicly it's hard (unless someone out there really knows this column and its images) to find the context from which the likes of this drawing (in an Alamy image) of a Germanic warrior with club was taken. I have read others commentaries suggesting context of both an attack on Dacian hillfort(s) and against Sarmatian cataphracts but I lack the expertise to find the images to corroborate these. (May be also the time to find these needles in the haystack.) But context is important.
see
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-military-ancient-world-roman-empire-german-auxiliary-troops-auxiliaries-47976788.html?imageid=E1E24E4A-8AD0-4F5F-B782-294E5343D885&pn=1&searchId=2b2caf30340042cb71b889d47126781b&searchtype=0
CarlL
Quote from: CarlL on Dec 23, 2025, 01:01 AMcontext is important Anthony / Erpingham, and despite many images being available publicly it's hard (unless someone out there really knows this column and its images) to find the context from which the likes of this drawing (in an Alamy image) of a Germanic warrior with club was taken.
Resource on Trajan's Column - https://www.trajans-column.org/
Includes sequential pictures which may be the sort of thing you are after :D
Most graciously received :)
Quote from: CarlL on Dec 23, 2025, 01:01 AMI am no student of Roman art, sculpture or literature, but often these are our only depiction of Rome's soldiers (or enemies) from such artefacts.
So the original sculpture of Trajan's column undoubtedly had a message other than just literal and pictorial representation; and those depicted may never have been seen by those creating the work. However its a key pictorial source that was intended to display Trajan's martial success and those he fought.
cliche perhaps fails to relate to any evidence as a statement.
The Romans in art and literature were prone to stereotypical descriptions and images of non-Romans, especially assorted "barbarians". We can call these references motifs, topoi or cliches (I'm afraid I find it hard to distinguish between a topos and a cliché). I think the general view of the sculptors of Trajan's column is they weren't working from something they'd seen but from supplied standard images. The club armed types are a pretty stock image of a Germanic barbarian, though their use of oval shields is perhaps unusual. This doesn't mean these types weren't present but we should be careful with interpretation.
This analysis of the types of figure on the column is interesting
https://arts.st-andrews.ac.uk/trajans-column/the-project/the-human-figure-types/
There are several sets of images online of the column (or the casts thereof) which show the clubmen in action. But I think that the Sarmatians are shown fighting the Roman cavalry, not the infantry. But this isn't my specialist area - one for the Romanists.
Quote from: Imperial Dave on Dec 22, 2025, 01:39 PMFor some reason I have it in my head that there is a description of some Sarmatians being armed with clubs. I know that there is a reference to Palestinian clubmen but I think there is also one that applies to Sarmatians.
Any ideas?
I think it's a misreading of Pliny the Younger who said that Sarmatians loved to go clubbing. The bars and clubs of Sarmizegetusa's underground scene really rocked in the 80s (AD). Pliny the Elder, on the other hand, disapproved of the Sarmatians' loud modern music and wild night life.
There you have it, easy error to make, but it was the 80s!
:o
Quote from: CarlL on Dec 23, 2025, 01:01 AMit's hard (unless someone out there really knows this column and its images) to find the context from which the likes of this drawing (in an Alamy image) of a Germanic warrior with club was taken.
I have looked and the Alamy image derives from Scene XXIV.
https://www.trajans-column.org/?flagallery=trajans-column-scenes-xxii-xlv-22-45#PhotoSwipe1766498180197
The subject of his ire is a fallen (apparently wounded) Dacian infantryman. We might note that this warrior has a sword as well as a club, which rather undermines my "iron poor" theory. Note also the way his shield attaches to his arm. Suggests that the sculptor wasn't familiar with functional details of shields.
Quote from: Erpingham on Dec 23, 2025, 09:26 AMI think the general view of the sculptors of Trajan's column is they weren't working from something they'd seen but from supplied standard images.
Unfortunately wargamers latch on to those stock images and apply them to troops 1000's of miles and 100's of years apart.
Bee in my bonnet being the Celtic "naked " fanatic.
The Dying Gaul is a wonderful propaganda piece, triumph over the noble savage; done in the Greek heroic tradition hence the subject is nude. The artist's or patron's message is clear "look how powerful we are to defeat such a mighty foe". Then there's Polybius, he tells us the Gaesatae at Telamon fought starkers while the Boii and Insubres merely stripped to the waist. Siculus repeats the naked gaesatae claim but with him it may only be the leaders.
" 8 all in the prime of life, and finely built men, and all in the leading companies richly adorned with gold torques and armlets."
Next time the Gaesatae appear it's 3 years later at Clastidium. No talk of fighting naked there, hot topic was Marcellus defeating the Gaesatae leader Viridomarus in single combat then stripping the corpse of it's "fine armour" as an offering to Jupiter. Sounds like lesson had been learned since Telamon ;D
Telamon aside, naked in military terms just means unarmoured yet bands of naked fanatics seem to appear in every Celtic wargames army from Ankara to Aberdeen ::)
I shall refrain from airing my thoughts on Ancient Britons getting Woad seeds brought from Central Europe so they could cultivate a crop then give themselves skin burns trying to use the juice as tattoo ink ;D
Quote from: kodiakblair on Dec 23, 2025, 03:10 PMI shall refrain from airing my thoughts on Ancient Britons getting Woad seeds brought from Central Europe so they could cultivate a crop then give themselves skin burns trying to use the juice as tattoo ink ;D
Especially the nether regions