I've come across the attached image in the files on my laptop; but unfortunately, I don't seem to have kept any note as to where it comes from. Google Image search doesn't help, probably because it's not clear enough.
persian with aspis.jpg
It seems to be a seal impression, showing a figure in what may be "Median" costume, carrying a Greek-style aspis shield.
Has anyone else come across it? Normally I keep some sort of note on where things com from, but not this time.
My guess would be that it's Anatolian, (or thereabouts)
Very likely, Jim. I've looked at some Anatolia-related websites to see if that's where I found it, but no luck so far.
In fact - inevitably - as soon as I posted asking for help, I remembered who had sent me the picture. Trying to track down more information that way.
I had not seen this picture before, so it's new to me.
I'm starting to think there is a short article on the provenance of this?!
Quote from: stevenneate on Nov 02, 2025, 02:07 AMI'm starting to think there is a short article on the provenance of this?!
Not unless I can find something a bit more definite. I know, now, that the picture was downloaded from www.achemenet.com, in 2021 by the look of it; but now I can't access any pictures in the "musée achéménide" section of that site, so I can't find what museum or collection the original is in, or anything else about it.
Isn't AI wonderful ..
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/can-you-identify-the-source-of-6Gm9UWRhRJG8ImPWMv4.bg#1
AI appears to write wonderful fiction, yes.
- The seal-impression in question is neither illustrated nor even mentioned in Briant's chapter on Droaphernes and the Sardis statue.
- Figure 2 in that chapter is simply a photo of the Droaphernes inscription, not of this (or any other) seal.
- As far as I can see achemenet doesn't even have a listing for Sardis in the "sites" section. There are some discussions of inscriptions in sources textuelles>Anatolie>Lydie, but this seal impression doesn't appear.
- There seems to be no way to search an achemenet database "for Sardis reliefs/Persian figure with shield".
So thanks for trying, but...
:'( Will delete.
Fascinating how detailed the reply was yet turned out to be fictional.
Quote from: Erpingham on Nov 03, 2025, 05:26 PMFascinating how detailed the reply was yet turned out to be fictional.
I suspect AI is only worth using if you know the answer anyway ::)
I've also tried to access the databases on achemenet.com using both PC and Android tablet but alas the images are seemingly not there. :(
AI seems to be very poor at admitting that it doesn't know the answer, and so will scramble to give you something based on the most tenuous of connections.
I think we all know someone like that...
It will get better. One day it will be so sophisticated that it despite it's huge and detailed knowledge, it will recognise its own limitations and simply say "Sorry, I haven't a clue. Have you tried asking Duncan?".
I don't know if this will help, but you might try accessing the site's presence via the Wayback Machine archive. This (https://web.archive.org/web/20190415174857/http://www.achemenet.com/fr/tree/?/musee-achemenide/categories-d-objets) is a more or less random link to the Musée Achéménide part of the site there from 2019. You can navigate from there to what's been preserved from other dates, so hopefully this will give a fighting chance of finding something helpful there.
Alastair, thank you, that's brilliant! I had been putting off using the Wayback option because I didn't know how much of the database it would preserve - I feared I might get listing pages but not data on individual items. But no, it's there, categories d'objets>bullae>Musee archéologique de Bandirma>page 8; item DS88, found at Daskyleion (so Jim's guess of an Anatolian provenance is correct).
Many thanks.
Well done Duncan (and Alastair). Take that, AI bot!
Now you have tracked it, what is the image telling us?
Yes Alastair, what an inspired suggestion. Whilst I was busy rooting around in the image database c. 2022 Duncan found what he was looking for!
Well, it might be evidence for soldiers in Persian (or "Median") clothing with a Greek-style hoplite shield. This is the "traditional" interpretation of kardakes-hoplites. But, as Richard T pointed out in his Greek Hoplite Phalanx book, calling them "hoplites" doesn't necessarily mean Greek hoplite gear. We have figures in this costume with the aspis on the Alexander Sarcophagus, but Nick Sekunda has alternative identifications for these. And although he does have a reconstruction of a kardaka-hoplite based on figures on the Mosaic, I've never been sure what figures he means, nor whether the shield he uses (the one under Alex's horse, decorated with concentric circles) is actually a hoplite aspis at all (there is no clear offset rim). So any tiny snippet of information along those lines is useful.
Quote from: Erpingham on Nov 03, 2025, 05:26 PMFascinating how detailed the reply was yet turned out to be fictional.
Obviously trained on the texts of ancient Greek and Roman historians.
Delighted it did help! I had a quick glance through some of those Bandirma pages, but I didn't get as far as page 8. I did notice that those bullae images were often very similar in nature and form to the one you were hunting for, much more so than those from the other museums, so was hopeful it might be there somewhere.
I usually do try Wayback Machine in cases like this, as the worst that can happen is it just says "sorry, we don't appear to have that page archived". The main snag is you need to have a website URL of some kind to work with in the first place, as the search can be very slow and unhelpful there otherwise.