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#71
Ancient and Medieval History / The myth of Arthur
Last post by Imperial Dave - May 04, 2026, 06:19 PMhttps://www.medievalists.net/2026/05/the-changing-myth-of-king-arthur/?utm_source=gravitec&utm_medium=push&utm_campaign=Push+Notification
Its a short piece but there you go, another offering...
Its a short piece but there you go, another offering...
#72
Battle Reports / Re: Sea Peoples v New Kingdom ...
Last post by simonw - May 04, 2026, 06:12 PMGold will be awarded (when I have some). In the meantime, they'll have to make do with beer! 
#73
Army Research / Re: The Size of the Roman Army...
Last post by Imperial Dave - May 04, 2026, 09:45 AMThe Calgacus discussion is a nice side note btw.
#74
Army Research / Re: The Size of the Roman Army...
Last post by Ian61 - May 04, 2026, 06:55 AMI can't access the pdf I just get 'something went wrong' but this is one of those battles that 'might have been' whilst Agricola probably had a fight up there it may well have been bigged-up by Tacitus. (I am a huge fan of the Agricola as a brilliant and we'll crafted narrative but this doesn't mean I believe it.)
#75
Army Research / Re: The Size of the Roman Army...
Last post by Monad - May 04, 2026, 04:30 AMQuote from: stevenneate on May 03, 2026, 10:48 PMOne minor correction - on page 1 the legion present was the XXth Valeria Victrix, not the XIIth
Yes, that was pointed out to me in the discussion group. Next, after Mons Graupius in my research was Arrian's Expedition, which involves the 12th legion. I did a cut and paste of the legion numbers from Arrian because I had already upper superscripted the legion numbers and after pasting forgot to change the 12th legion to the 20th legion. Also spelt Calgacus with a G instead of a C.
Quote from: stevenneate on May 03, 2026, 10:48 PMOtherwise, the paper strengths of Agricola's forces are all we have to go on, and ancient historians would have gone on these as well.
Exactly, and I cannot see why others on the discussion cannot realise that. Tacitus' numbers are rounded as are most numbers in the primary sources. I believe they do historically represent Agricola's force, so Tacitus had a good source, as did Plutarch's 88,000 Romans and allies at Cannae, which includes officers and supernumeraries, and are rare. Tacitus' numbers when unrounded, align with the rest of the unit and army numbers for the principate. Arrian's expedition is interesting as he has left all those troops with the minimum campaigns behind to protect the camp before setting out to engage the Alani, so from my research, this means the numerus organisation comes into play. Many believe the numerus represents any number of troops, but I disagree.
Quote from: stevenneate on May 03, 2026, 10:48 PMThis may give us a better guide to the potential size of the Caledonian force but until then, anything from 10,000 to 30,000 is feasible if the tribes were gathered to make a stand under an influential leader.
Unfortunately, I have found, which is backed with four volumes of evidence, is enemy numbers have been concocted from the Roman army or fleet that faced them. Mons Graupius is no different. The red flag for me with Mons Graupius is when Tacitus provides the numbers for the auxiliary and cavalry, and yet omits the number of legionaries. The reason behind this is to cover up how the size of the Caledonian army was constructed. For example, during the First Punic War, a consular fleet would leave Italy and arrive at Messena and leave 32 ships as its revictual fleet. The consular fleet would then sail on to wherever it was going with the rest of the fleet. So, two consular fleets would leave 64 ships at Messena. Now look at the Carthaginian ships captured at Ecnomus in 256 BC:
Polybius 64 ships
Eutropius 64 ships
Orosius 64 ships
AVI 63 ships
As the Carthaginian commander is reported to have escaped, the author of the AVI has deducted this from the 64 Carthaginian ships captured. However, if no one knew that the Romans left a revictual fleet somewhere, those 64 captured Carthaginian ships would have no relevance. Oh, nearly forgot, for 251 BC, Polybius (1 39 9) reports that consuls Lucius Caecilius Metellus and Gaius Furius Pacilus were despatched to Sicily with "some legions" and 60 ships to revictual the legions, which has been rounded from 64 ships.
Quote from: stevenneate on May 03, 2026, 10:48 PMThere is also a paper on the derivation of the name Calgacus by Adrian Grant
Grant is also part of the discussion and I have his paper. It is quite interesting.
#76
Army Research / Re: The Size of the Roman Army...
Last post by stevenneate - May 03, 2026, 10:48 PMNice work. One minor correction - on page 1 the legion present was the XXth Valeria Victrix, not the XIIth.
Otherwise, the paper strengths of Agricola's forces are all we have to go on, and ancient historians would have gone on these as well. Daily reports from the front would not have been part of their narrative! Given the usual numbers unfit for duty, camp garrison and general laggards, I don't believe these numbers would have been drastically reduced. Agricola was well supplied with a base at Monifieth at the mouth of the River Tay. Whilst he fought his way through Maetae territory, it was relatively trouble free from there in comparison. The Caledonians had gathered for a fight, rather than their usual hit and run, so the position they chose must have seemed like the strongest army-sized defensive position or Agricola was close to hitting something important to the prestige of Calgacus that had to be defended.
Inchtuthil, as a "legionary" fortress, was 53 acres in size and if the camp at Logie Durno is indeed Agricola's camp, it is 3 times the size of this at 145 acres. This is enough space to accommodate Agricola's force. A very worthwhile study is Dr Rebecca H. Jones's "Roman Camps in Scotland" (Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, ISBN: 978-0-903903-50-9, 2011).
My pipe dream would be that someone, one day, discovers the battlefield and it might fill in some gaps in our knowledge. This may give us a better guide to the potential size of the Caledonian force but until then, anything from 10,000 to 30,000 is feasible if the tribes were gathered to make a stand under an influential leader.
There is also a paper on the derivation of the name Calgacus by Adrian Grant at: https://independent.academia.edu/s/4b4fa366c8.
Otherwise, the paper strengths of Agricola's forces are all we have to go on, and ancient historians would have gone on these as well. Daily reports from the front would not have been part of their narrative! Given the usual numbers unfit for duty, camp garrison and general laggards, I don't believe these numbers would have been drastically reduced. Agricola was well supplied with a base at Monifieth at the mouth of the River Tay. Whilst he fought his way through Maetae territory, it was relatively trouble free from there in comparison. The Caledonians had gathered for a fight, rather than their usual hit and run, so the position they chose must have seemed like the strongest army-sized defensive position or Agricola was close to hitting something important to the prestige of Calgacus that had to be defended.
Inchtuthil, as a "legionary" fortress, was 53 acres in size and if the camp at Logie Durno is indeed Agricola's camp, it is 3 times the size of this at 145 acres. This is enough space to accommodate Agricola's force. A very worthwhile study is Dr Rebecca H. Jones's "Roman Camps in Scotland" (Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, ISBN: 978-0-903903-50-9, 2011).
My pipe dream would be that someone, one day, discovers the battlefield and it might fill in some gaps in our knowledge. This may give us a better guide to the potential size of the Caledonian force but until then, anything from 10,000 to 30,000 is feasible if the tribes were gathered to make a stand under an influential leader.
There is also a paper on the derivation of the name Calgacus by Adrian Grant at: https://independent.academia.edu/s/4b4fa366c8.
#77
Shows & Events / Re: SOA wins best participatio...
Last post by CarlL - May 03, 2026, 06:33 PMDave
RE "However it is a little odd that there was no publicity on this forum on the team from the Society and the battle they were taking
"
I think the answer is ORGANIC to how the SoA survives, as alluded to by Richard Jeffrey-Cook, it is organic in sense that over the years many members have taken the 'banner' (not always literally) of the SoA to their local show(s) to raise profile of SoA and as volunteers (rather than this being a centrally organised event) while many times SoA goods would be provided by a SoA committee member to support this venture and any subscriptions raised passed on (obviously mostly re website days). The same principles still apply hence my labelling it as organic in terms of how volunteers run our society, as pro-active members.
The only advertising might be a notice in Slingshot or in later years on the website of the organisation whose show the volunteers attended. Many committee members have done this on top of 'committee' roles (Phil Steel perhaps being the most obvious one - but apologies to all those others who have attended over the years..) In Lancashire (as was) myself, Phil Halewood and Martin Charlesworth did a similar regular participation game spot at the 'Phalanx' show for many years. You probably only met other SoA members in this way outside of SoA events, like the AGMs / conventions or the AGMs held for couple of years as the Leeds Armouries museum.
Of course the Forum helps widen our contacts, but most of those I have spoken to here I have never met face to face, so the volunteers become that face for some national or local events.
CarlL
RE "However it is a little odd that there was no publicity on this forum on the team from the Society and the battle they were taking
"I think the answer is ORGANIC to how the SoA survives, as alluded to by Richard Jeffrey-Cook, it is organic in sense that over the years many members have taken the 'banner' (not always literally) of the SoA to their local show(s) to raise profile of SoA and as volunteers (rather than this being a centrally organised event) while many times SoA goods would be provided by a SoA committee member to support this venture and any subscriptions raised passed on (obviously mostly re website days). The same principles still apply hence my labelling it as organic in terms of how volunteers run our society, as pro-active members.
The only advertising might be a notice in Slingshot or in later years on the website of the organisation whose show the volunteers attended. Many committee members have done this on top of 'committee' roles (Phil Steel perhaps being the most obvious one - but apologies to all those others who have attended over the years..) In Lancashire (as was) myself, Phil Halewood and Martin Charlesworth did a similar regular participation game spot at the 'Phalanx' show for many years. You probably only met other SoA members in this way outside of SoA events, like the AGMs / conventions or the AGMs held for couple of years as the Leeds Armouries museum.
Of course the Forum helps widen our contacts, but most of those I have spoken to here I have never met face to face, so the volunteers become that face for some national or local events.
CarlL
#78
Battle Reports / Re: Sea Peoples v New Kingdom ...
Last post by stevenneate - May 03, 2026, 10:26 AM"Essentially, they (the Egyptian archers) held the line long enough to avoid defeat."
Well, archers generally can't get higher praise than that! Truly heroes for Pharoah indeed.
Well, archers generally can't get higher praise than that! Truly heroes for Pharoah indeed.
#79
Battle Reports / Re: Sea Peoples v New Kingdom ...
Last post by simonw - May 02, 2026, 04:05 PMSteve, The Egyptian archers performed well. Their shooting inflicted enough casualties to force a couple of Missile Halts and although they eventually succumbed in melee, they fought very well and inflicted a lot of casualties. Essentially, they held the line long enough to avoiddefeat. Cheers, Simon
#80
Battle Reports / Re: Sea Peoples v New Kingdom ...
Last post by stevenneate - May 02, 2026, 12:35 PMHow did the Egyptian archers perform? Was their archery effective enough for them to hold their own is their melee ability enough to back up their archery?